BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
11
15%
are quiet and smooth
7
9%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 74

Biospace
Posts: 2169
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Cowsham wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 1:40pm ...I'm not impressed with the fit of body panels on the outside but again this is true of many other cars produced ATM -- most look thrown together compared to cars made 20 years previous.
Toyota appear to have decent panel fit, but perhaps I'm looking only from afar... which manufacturers do you see with this problem atm?

---

I see the CEO of Stellantis, Vauxhall's umbrella company, has suggested today that UK jobs are at risk from the Government's mandate for BEV sales percentages which was introduced this year at 22%, rising to 80% by 2030; he has described the rules as "terrible".

The market is a fraction the government imposed figures, he says, the only way manufacturers can meet the target would be through selling cars at a loss. One solution suggested by this CEO would be to combine the figure for both cars and light vans and include exports.

Instead of charging the taxpayer for more incentives for those wealthy enough to afford a new EV and imposing additional tarrifs on Chinese competition, noting protectionism ultimately leads to higher prices, Carlos Tavares said, “Why don’t we try ourselves to accelerate, and to use the brains of our people, to move faster in the affordability, in the technology, the manufacturing?

Screenshot 2024-04-25 at 16.09.57.png
https://www.ft.com/content/ece7fba0-391 ... d44fa1d9f2
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/law ... r-AA1nDT3b

His comments on not burdening the taxpayer appear to contradict what he requested after the budget,
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 024-03-06/
Braceby
Posts: 88
Joined: 29 Mar 2024, 8:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Braceby »

Biospace wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 3:48pm
Cowsham wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 1:40pm ...I'm not impressed with the fit of body panels on the outside but again this is true of many other cars produced ATM -- most look thrown together compared to cars made 20 years previous.
Toyota appear to have decent panel fit, but perhaps I'm looking only from afar... which manufacturers do you see with this problem atm?

---

I see the CEO of Stellantis, Vauxhall's umbrella company, has suggested today that UK jobs are at risk from the Government's mandate for BEV sales percentages which was introduced this year at 22%, rising to 80% by 2030; he has described the rules as "terrible".

The market is a fraction the government imposed figures, he says, the only way manufacturers can meet the target would be through selling cars at a loss. One solution suggested by this CEO would be to combine the figure for both cars and light vans and include exports.

Instead of charging the taxpayer for more incentives for those wealthy enough to afford a new EV and imposing additional tarrifs on Chinese competition, noting protectionism ultimately leads to higher prices, Carlos Tavares said, “Why don’t we try ourselves to accelerate, and to use the brains of our people, to move faster in the affordability, in the technology, the manufacturing?”


Screenshot 2024-04-25 at 16.09.57.png
https://www.ft.com/content/ece7fba0-391 ... d44fa1d9f2
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/law ... r-AA1nDT3b

His comments on not burdening the taxpayer appear to contradict what he requested after the budget,
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 024-03-06/
Stellantis seemed to come from nowhere. A Dutch company who've bought Peugeot, Citroen, Vauxhall, Opel, Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Chrysler and Fiat. Hard to imagine brands as Italian as Alfa Romeo and Maserati being Dutch. No different to Jaguar being Indian though.
Jdsk
Posts: 25865
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Braceby wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 4:43pm ...
Stellantis seemed to come from nowhere. A Dutch company who've bought Peugeot, Citroen, Vauxhall, Opel, Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Chrysler and Fiat. Hard to imagine brands as Italian as Alfa Romeo and Maserati being Dutch.
...
It was formed by a merger of very big existing manufacturers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#History

Jonathan
User avatar
Cowsham
Posts: 5206
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Cowsham »

Biospace wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 3:48pm
Cowsham wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 1:40pm ...I'm not impressed with the fit of body panels on the outside but again this is true of many other cars produced ATM -- most look thrown together compared to cars made 20 years previous.
Toyota appear to have decent panel fit, but perhaps I'm looking only from afar... which manufacturers do you see with this problem atm?
To be clear it's nothing to do with Bev's, it seems prevalent across many brands and formats.

Our last car was a Toyota and yes the panel gaps / fit was perfect but that was a 2012 car and haven't looked at the new ones.

My brothers 2018 Ford transit is good from far but far from good as panel fit goes. Not sure whether that's intentional or not.

My 2005 vivaro has perfect panel gaps and the contours of the panels all line up to give a good profile but the bonnet on that transit doesn't line up with the door pillars or wings and gaps are not parallel panel to panel like my old van. ( ie the bonnet could sit proud of the wing panel or vice versa can't remember which way it is just know it looks terrible.)

None of the vans have been damaged and he's had his from new. I also checked other vans and they're just the same. Since that I've noticed countless newish cars are the same.
Last edited by Cowsham on 26 Apr 2024, 5:35pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am here. Where are you?
sjs
Posts: 1332
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 10:08pm
Location: Hitchin

Re: BEVs

Post by sjs »

Biospace wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 3:46pm
Braceby wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 3:07pm To know that you've obviously dismantled a Tesla to look at the mechanical/electrical bits. I haven't, so must bow to your superior knowledge.
I've studied a rear sub-assembly which had been removed from a Model S, it was more Porsche than Pontiac. Had I done the spanner work myself to remove it, I would have seen even more.

Less impressive is how Tesla have previously tried to save money on control arm sourcing/manufacture, to the point they were experiencing premature failures around the balljoints.
Yes indeed. That was one of our failures.
UpWrong
Posts: 2488
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Microlino vs Silence S04

Post by UpWrong »

Microlino have announced a UK distributor, Krazy Horse, but have yet to provide UK prices. I've spent the day taking a closer look at the Microlino and the Silence S04 since an option for me is to keep my Skoda running but buy something else for frequent local commutes and to be used by the Mrs assuming she gets round to taking and passing her test.

Both have similar power and similar range achieving more than 8 miles per KwH. Silence is around £6K less expensive, but the Microlino is a styling triumph which may prove to be a classic.Microlino is a small startup and are now producing around 100 per week with sales in excess of 3000. Silence have just started production of the S04 but have sold more than 100,000 of their scooters. Both companies are sourcing European components, including batteries, and assembling in Europe.

Microlino (Dolce 10.5 KwH)

Likes:

Unibody
Sleek styling
Minimalist design
Low environmental impact in production
Efficient
Sunroof
Reasonable charge speed @2.6KW

Dislikes:

Front door access: inconvenience and blocking potential
Thick A-pillars
Reverse parking a bit tricky ( sloping tail and no sensors).
Risk of buying from small startup.
Price (22K euros)
Harsh ride?
Loud gearbox transmission.

Silence S04 (11.2 KwH)

Likes:

Company track record
Sporty performance and handling
Well finished.
Good product design building on proven scooters
Sophisticated BMS with built-in battery heaters
Air conditioning.
Straightforward battery replacement.

Dislikes:

Slow charging (1.2KW)
More complicated so more to go wrong than with the Microlino.

UPDATE: having watched a number of test drive videos it's pretty clear to me that the Silence wins if you value function over form. The Microlino is a styling tour de force but that gearbox whine and the harsh ride along with manual sliding windows, poor wing mirrors, no rear view mirror and a marginally adequate windscreen wiper mean that you have to love the look enough to ignore its shortcomings.

So for me I need to weigh up getting a Silence or a Dacia Spring. Part of that is whether I'm happy to run two vehicles or try to manage on one.
Last edited by UpWrong on 30 Apr 2024, 11:10am, edited 2 times in total.
UpWrong
Posts: 2488
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

UpWrong wrote: 9 Apr 2024, 6:48pm I like the idea of an electric car and the new Dacia Spring is looking like a step forward environmentally, the lightest weight and better efficiency. Realistically though, were I to use it for a long tour in which I was relying on public charging then a third of my journey time would be waiting for it to charge. From their press release for the car, "a 30 kW DC charger enables fast charging from 20% to 80% in 45 minutes". 60% battery capacity equates to about 80 miles and I could expect to cover that distance in around 90 minutes. Hence one third of my journey time would be waiting for the car to charge.

I guess stretching it to an 80% charge from 10% to 90% (about 110 miles) might let me get to somewhere interesting so I wouldn't mind waiting 60 mins for the car to recharge.
It would seem that the rapid DC charging with the Dacia Spring only comes with the top model which is £17K. Also I've come to understand that 20% to 80% recharging is the norm with rapid charges because the rate slows down as the charge level approaches 100% This is a feature of lithium battery chemistry. I don't know if there's a significant difference between NMC and LFP batteries and a battery cooling system might help. Also in winter the 60% capacity range of 80 miles would probably drop fto 65 miles. And that range might come down again if you want to keep the car at 70mph or are driving into a wind because of air resistance. So you could be looking to recharge after 50 miles. Not so good.
UpWrong
Posts: 2488
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Green NCAP

Post by UpWrong »

I'm a bit suspicious of these "green" ratings. The old Dacia Spring does well, https://www.greenncap.com/assessments/
Biospace
Posts: 2169
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

UpWrong wrote: 27 Apr 2024, 10:51am It would seem that the rapid DC charging with the Dacia Spring only comes with the top model which is £17K. Also I've come to understand that 20% to 80% recharging is the norm with rapid charges because the rate slows down as the charge level approaches 100% This is a feature of lithium battery chemistry. I don't know if there's a significant difference between NMC and LFP batteries and a battery cooling system might help. Also in winter the 60% capacity range of 80 miles would probably drop fto 65 miles. And that range might come down again if you want to keep the car at 70mph or are driving into a wind because of air resistance. So you could be looking to recharge after 50 miles. Not so good.
I wouldn't have a problem if I'd bought a BEV with a smaller battery capacity which for 1 in 60 trips needed topping up before the destination was reached since the benefits of lower initial price, lower running costs, lower weight, less complexity and all the other EV plus points would surely more than outweigh this occasional disturbance to previous driving patterns.

If someone buys a car with a 65 mile range in winter but they frequently travel more than 90% of that distance in one go, then they've either made a mistake and bought without first doing a little research, or have decided that they can adjust their habits.

At £15k, the Dacia Spring is going to be as 'cheap' as a Kia Picanto and £7-8k cheaper than the next least expensive BEV; its maximum range is clearly stated and I would doubt many will be disappointed if it proves reliable, if the battery lasts acceptably well and its good to drive.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7985
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Mike Sales »

cabin car.jpg
cabin car.jpg (16.19 KiB) Viewed 168 times
My new BEV.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
UpWrong
Posts: 2488
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

Biospace wrote: 2 May 2024, 10:03am
I wouldn't have a problem if I'd bought a BEV with a smaller battery capacity which for 1 in 60 trips needed topping up before the destination was reached since the benefits of lower initial price, lower running costs, lower weight, less complexity and all the other EV plus points would surely more than outweigh this occasional disturbance to previous driving patterns.

If someone buys a car with a 65 mile range in winter but they frequently travel more than 90% of that distance in one go, then they've either made a mistake and bought without first doing a little research, or have decided that they can adjust their habits.

At £15k, the Dacia Spring is going to be as 'cheap' as a Kia Picanto and £7-8k cheaper than the next least expensive BEV; its maximum range is clearly stated and I would doubt many will be disappointed if it proves reliable, if the battery lasts acceptably well and its good to drive.
The more I look at the Dacia Spring the more I like it whilst acknowledging that longer trips wouid take more time and need more planning. It comes with an 8 year battery warranty. The NMC battery pack is quite compact and sited below the rear seats. 1000 cycle charges may be less than the life of the car (e.g. 1000 * 80 miles = 80K miles) but I would anticipate battery replacement being viable without costing an arm and a leg.
Last edited by UpWrong on 4 May 2024, 3:39pm, edited 2 times in total.
UpWrong
Posts: 2488
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

I've had an email from Microlino that they will be taking UK orders soon and requiring a deposit. I'd go with the L7e Dolce medium battery (10.5 KwH). Confusingly they label this as having a 177 Km range, but later on show this translating to 144Km in summer and 108Km in winter. Perhaps the 177Km is a WMTC test result. More worryingly owners on Facebook are saying it is difficult to get over 100Km in practice. 100Km would be good enough for me though this suggests the real world efficiency is nearer 6.5 miles/KwH.

However I'm more likely to go for the Silence. I ought to book a test drive of the Silence at their UK HQ in Solihull if I'm going to be serious about this.

On another note Citroen have sold 50K Amis and are going to offer yet more cosmetic variations of it. I hope they are also gradually improving the quality because a lot owners seem to be having parts fail after low mileages.
User avatar
squeaker
Posts: 4123
Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 11:43pm
Location: Sussex

Re: BEVs

Post by squeaker »

UpWrong wrote: 4 May 2024, 3:34pmI hope they are also gradually improving the quality because a lot owners seem to be having parts fail after low mileages.
It's probably the rough ride what does it :roll: :lol:
"42"
UpWrong
Posts: 2488
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

squeaker wrote: 4 May 2024, 9:13pm
UpWrong wrote: 4 May 2024, 3:34pmI hope they are also gradually improving the quality because a lot owners seem to be having parts fail after low mileages.
It's probably the rough ride what does it :roll: :lol:
Yes, British roads are probably taking their toll on suspension units and drive shafts. Maybe it was designed for the south of France :lol:
Carlton green
Posts: 3854
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

UpWrong wrote: 4 May 2024, 3:34pm I've had an email from Microlino that they will be taking UK orders soon and requiring a deposit. I'd go with the L7e Dolce medium battery (10.5 KwH). Confusingly they label this as having a 177 Km range, but later on show this translating to 144Km in summer and 108Km in winter. Perhaps the 177Km is a WMTC test result. More worryingly owners on Facebook are saying it is difficult to get over 100Km in practice. 100Km would be good enough for me though this suggests the real world efficiency is nearer 6.5 miles/KwH.

However I'm more likely to go for the Silence. I ought to book a test drive of the Silence at their UK HQ in Solihull if I'm going to be serious about this.

On another note Citroen have sold 50K Amis and are going to offer yet more cosmetic variations of it. I hope they are also gradually improving the quality because a lot owners seem to be having parts fail after low mileages.
At the new prices of these cars I’m really puzzled as to why someone wouldn’t simply buy a (larger, better range and better engineered) nearly new BEV instead.

One thing that nobody in the pro BEV group seems to mention is the very high insurance grouping of BEV cars. Group 20 plus for a Nissan Leaf is something of a concern to me and I hate to think what my premiums would be for such a car.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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