Heat in the home

[853]

You are going to have really big radiators if 40 degrees is all the heat pump can manage. The flow temperature on my system is kept at about 60 degrees. Sure the heat pump will work but you will need to run it day and night and fit appropriately sized radiators in a well insulated building.

We've been here before, way upthread. A heat pump doesn't need to be installed only in a well insulated building. If a gas/oil boiler works, so will a heat pump

[Paulatic]

You are going to have really big radiators if 40 degrees is all the heat pump can manage. The flow temperature on my system is kept at about 60 degrees. Sure the heat pump will work but you will need to run it day and night and fit appropriately sized radiators in a well insulated building. And that is something that will probably put many potential heat pump users off. There are massive government incentives to install heat pumps in Norway which has oodles of low cost electricity and where most buildings are highly insulated due to the challenging climate.

In a time of ramped up energy prices due to Putins war its no surprise that the idea of heat pump installations in existing buildings isnt very popular.

Al

Hoping you don’t have a condensing boiler and running it at 60C flow temperature. You’re not getting the best from it.
I’ve an ASHP (15 years) and a few years ago I must have read something and began turning it off overnight. It was bad advice. Benefit is I’ve now hard evidence it’s cheaper to leave it running 24hrs and I’m sure the fabric of the house is happier too.
I think what might put people off installing a HP are tales from people who try to use them the same way as their old boiler. A low flow temperature giving a good SCOP can keep you cosy. Constantly running it only has to match the heat loss from your home.
I’m an A2A man and no need to worry about radiator size or placement. If I lived in Ireland I could get 3,500 eu for an A2A installation but here nothing.
Poland has the biggest sales in the EU 2022 and Norwegian's receive a mere 1.000eu a sixth of what’s offered here in the U.K. The problem I see here is too many cowboy outfits badly installing unsuitable systems while cashing in from government money.

Residential heat pump subsidies across ... ss-europe/

[Cugel]

You are going to have really big radiators if 40 degrees is all the heat pump can manage. The flow temperature on my system is kept at about 60 degrees. Sure the heat pump will work but you will need to run it day and night and fit appropriately sized radiators in a well insulated building. And that is something that will probably put many potential heat pump users off. There are massive government incentives to install heat pumps in Norway which has oodles of low cost electricity and where most buildings are highly insulated due to the challenging climate.

In a time of ramped up energy prices due to Putins war its no surprise that the idea of heat pump installations in existing buildings isnt very popular.

Al

Did engineers in your day not larn thermodymanicals then? You seem very confused about the heat pump.

I notice that various Blighter firms installing heat pumps have "managers" that spout things about heat pump inadequacies that are just not true. (You'll have read all about it in your Hate Mail and Torygraft). It seems to be to cover up their incompetence at the installation process. These will be the Great British Managers of our wonderful Blighty tradition, as found running the post office, the waterworks and several other World Clarss businesses-that-used-to-be-services.

Oh to be in Ingurland, now that Sunkackered's there. Soon he'll be gorn, probably to a job doing rip-offs selling something oily & gassy to dafties silly enough to believe any old spiv chatter.

[rjb]

I can lend you my favourite text book for some light reading.

download.jpeg (9.35 KiB) Viewed 427 times

[JerseyJoe]

There's a good review about heat pumps in today's Guardian: it's saying that all the negative hype about heat pumps is nonsense, and that compared to gas boilers they knock then 6 into a cocked hat for efficient heating and cost effectiveness.

[JerseyJoe]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/se ... ythbusters

[al_yrpal]

I am not confused, I was merely observing the scepticism with which heat pumps are regarded and why 80% of the public apparently wouldnt get a heat pump installed to replace their gas boiler. Heat pump advocates are going to have to work harder.

Not everyone has the £50 grand or so to install a ground source type and plaster their home with solar panels and batteries.

Lets hope our new government has the vision to build enough generating capacity fast enough to run all those new heat pumps and charge up all those electric cars!

Al

[Cugel]

I am not confused, I was merely observing the scepticism with which heat pumps are regarded and why 80% of the public apparently wouldnt get a heat pump installed to replace their gas boiler. Heat pump advocates are going to have to work harder.

Not everyone has the £50 grand or so to install a ground source type and plaster their home with solar panels and batteries.

Lets hope our new government has the vision to build enough generating capacity fast enough to run all those new heat pumps and charge up all those electric cars!

Al

Just recently, after improving the already extant energy systems installed before we bought this house, we added two air source heat pumps to provide air conditioning during the now often very hot late spring, summer and early autumn heat waves. The total cost, inclusive of a very well-done installation, was just under £5000 in total.

These air-source heat pumps consist of a small outside heat exchanger and an even smaller inside gubbins that outputs the conditioned air in various fashions, at various rates and various temperatures. The air movement is also a very good mould preventer in damper houses.

The heat exchangers will act as both air heaters and air coolers, as well as filters to take out all the pollen, flies and dust that come in just by opening your sash windows instead. They can be installed on a room-by-room basis or as a series of loft-enclosed pipes exuding air from a central loft-hosted distribution device, as required, into various rooms or other locations about the house.

There's no need to install any new radiators or heating pipework. The only pipework is a neat downpipe-like enclosure on the outside wall containing the heat pump electricity supply and air-moving pipe. It can match your existing roof gutter downpipes.

The Mitsubishi heat pumps still have an efficiency rating of around 3.0X averaged over the year. (3X the energy output for the energy input). As we now generate vast amount of excess solar during the spring, summer and autumn, it costs us nothing to run these heat pumps as air coolers. They could also be air heaters in winter, although the ground source heat pump that came with the house when we bought it provides as much heating and hot water as we like.

************
In short, anyone who can afford £2500 per large room for heating can have these heat pumps installed and gain the £3x energy use/production advantage along with air that's clean, mould-preventing and at whatever temperature suits each room so-enhanced. Add solar panels and, even better, a battery, to get electricity for free or at a very inexpensive night time grid rate. Nothing like your £50,000 then. And clean if you add the solar; or when grid electricity is entirely derived from wind, sun and perhaps river.

[rjb]

£5 grand. You're having a laugh

Just recently, after improving the already extant energy systems installed before we bought this house, we added two air source heat pumps to provide air conditioning during the now often very hot late spring, summer and early autumn heat waves. The total cost, inclusive of a very well-done installation, was just under £5000 in total.

Sensible people just open the windows, close the blinds or curtains on south facing windows and run a fan if it's not breezy, and save all that electric for essential use insead of wasting it, warming the planet further by burning gas to generate it.

[ANTONISH]

And the first in a series of mythbusters:

"Are heat pumps more expensive to run than gas boilers?":
https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... as-boilers

#2: "Do heat pumps work at freezing temperatures?":
https://www.theguardian.com/business/se ... ythbusters

Thanks for the two excellent links; I hope that heat pump sceptics read them both carefully

I read the two "excellent links" - there was nothing to show that a heat pump would cost less to run than my oil fired boiler.

[al_yrpal]

From what you have said Cugel you have about £50 grands worth of thermo kit in your place and typical of well insulated poorly ventilated houses you have had to install a/c units to keep it cool in summer. You bought your place with a non working ground source jobbie. How much would that cost to originally fit - £25 grand? Your panels and extra a/c another £25 grand? Monster SUV in the drive..... Let me know where this is incorrect...

Al

[Jdsk]

...
I read the two "excellent links" - there was nothing to show that a heat pump would cost less to run than my oil fired boiler.

The titles were: "Are heat pumps more expensive to run than gas boilers?" and "Do heat pumps work at freezing temperatures?".

I wouldn't expect articles with those titles to compare costs with your oil fired boiler.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

There's a good review about heat pumps in today's Guardian: it's saying that all the negative hype about heat pumps is nonsense, and that compared to gas boilers they knock then 6 into a cocked hat for efficient heating and cost effectiveness.

It's cited a few posts back and then discussed.

Jonathan

[JerseyJoe]

I got a local authority grant to install our heat pump (LG) should've cost 19k, we paid 4 for it. It comes with a lengthy guarantee and in winter we pay about £4.20 a day to heat a 3 bedroom house. Our old gas fired system died on us, it was costing around £6.50 a day to keep the house at a reasonable (18C) temperature l, so over the winter it was costing us about £300 extra to run it. The house has never felt so comfortably warm.

France has really ramped up it's heat pump installation, I've got a friend lives in the Gers region and people on low income there can have a complete system (and have their house insulated) installed for 1 euro. This will not be music to Putin's ears!

[Cugel]

£5 grand. You're having a laugh

Just recently, after improving the already extant energy systems installed before we bought this house, we added two air source heat pumps to provide air conditioning during the now often very hot late spring, summer and early autumn heat waves. The total cost, inclusive of a very well-done installation, was just under £5000 in total.

Sensible people just open the windows, close the blinds or curtains on south facing windows and run a fan if it's not breezy, and save all that electric for essential use instead of wasting it, warming the planet further by burning gas to generate it.

Sensible people don't burn gas, oil, wood or anything else if they can help it. It's highly damaging stuff, see? (Or have you not heard yet)? Also, fans use electricity, you know .... even to move already hot and dusty air from outside to inside.

When it's 30 degrees outside (as it is more and more often these days, even in West Wales) opening a window merely heats the house to the same temperature. In fact, if the sun is bathing the house in its radiant heat, it gets even hotter. Air con is a rather beneficial tech ..... if you can run it on free and clean electricity from your solar panels; or from a grid that has eventually thrown-off the gassy & oily & smokey fugging tech and is producing loadsa cheap green lecky from wind & solar instead. A pollen-free atmosphere saves me quite a lot of sneezing and honking, too.

As to the cost of air-to-air heat pumps - are you suggesting I'm lying to you about their cost or is it that you're amazed at how low the cost really is? How much was your gassy polluter-boiler?