Hope in Israel/Palestine

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Pebble
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Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by Pebble »

Psamathe wrote: 8 Mar 2024, 11:41am Is it just me or is Biden's "build a port" plan just total madness (and ill thought through)? There is already a port close by well serviced by roads - why not use that one? And the existing port could be used today rather than wait for a new port to be constructed.

Or just use the existing land distribution.

And if reports about Israel restricting aid through land routes is true, are they going to allow the US to build a port to bypass their restrictions?

I'm suspicious that Biden's announcement is more to try and counter the polling impact following the US primaries "Uncommitted" votes he's been seeing, to try and counter the negative US electorate reaction to his unwavering support for anything and everything Israel does and his continuing provision of arms.
and they are going to build this port (that needs to handle 300+ trucks daily) without an American putting a boot on the ground
Psamathe
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by Psamathe »

Wonder what will happen regarding steps now being reported on:
https://www.theguardian.com/law/article/2024/may/20/icc-prosecutor-seeks-arrest-warrants-israeli-pm-netanyahu-hamas-officials-war-crimes wrote:ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants for Israeli PM and Hamas officials for war crimes
The chief prosecutor of the international criminal court has said he is seeking arrest warrants for senior Hamas and Israeli officials for war crimes and crimes against humanity, including the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and his defence minister, Yoav Gallant, a move that puts the post-second world war rules-based order to the test and presents new challenges for Israel’s western allies.
I confess I don't know much about how the ICC works but on the surface sounds like the request comes from fairly high up ("chief prosecutor of the international criminal court") so I assume it has pretty solid grounds and evidence and thus a realistic chance of being approved.

Ian
Edit: Commentary feed (Guardian "Live" Report Page) with responses to the ICC request https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... ion-latest
djnotts
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by djnotts »

Only losers tried for such crimes. Not those unequivocally supported by a permanent member of the UN Council. So I doubt ISRAELIS lose any sleep.

"Biden calls ICC prosecutor's request for arrest of Israeli officials 'outrageous'
Joe Biden has objected to the international criminal court chief prosecutor Karim Khan’s request for arrest warrants against prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other top Israeli officials as “outrageous”.

“The ICC prosecutor’s application for arrest warrants against Israeli leaders is outrageous. And let me be clear: whatever this prosecutor might imply, there is no equivalence – none – between Israel and Hamas. We will always stand with Israel against threats to its security,” the US president said in a statement."
reohn2
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by reohn2 »

The depths Israel will sink to:- https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... es-inquiry
From the article:-
Cohen, who was one of Netanyahu’s closest allies at the time and is emerging as a political force in his own right in Israel, personally led the Mossad’s involvement in an almost decade-long campaign by the country to undermine the court
And
According to accounts shared with ICC officials, he is alleged to have told her: “You should help us and let us take care of you. You don’t want to be getting into things that could compromise your security or that of your family.”

One individual briefed on Cohen’s activities said he had used “despicable tactics” against Bensouda as part of an ultimately unsuccessful effort to intimidate and influence her
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Nearholmer
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by Nearholmer »

As regards the thread title: the more I read, and the more I think, the less hope I feel.

I don’t only mean less hope for Palestinians, I mean less hope for Israelis too. More and more I see exactly what my father always saw, he having been there as an ordinary soldier at the end of the British Mandate: a situation that predestines endless bloodshed, trauma, and tears, for everyone who lives there, whatever their religion or ethnicity.

I’m also beginning to think that the “two state solution” is a mirage, because even if it could be made to happen, it won’t be a solution, just another set of lines on maps across which only fear and hatred will flow in both directions. If there is ever to be actual peace, it can, I think, only come from integration, sharing, and individuals from each faith regarding one another as individual human beings.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 28 May 2024, 12:07pm, edited 1 time in total.
mattheus
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by mattheus »

Nearholmer wrote: 28 May 2024, 10:18am As regards the thread title: the more I read, and the more I think, the less hope I feel.

I don’t only mean less hope for Palestinians, I mean less hope for Israelis too. More and more I see exactly what my father always saw, he having been there as an ordinary soldier at the end of the British Mandate: a situation that predestines endless bloodshed, trauma, and tears, for everyone who lives there, whatever their religion or ethnicity.

I’m also beginning to think that the “two state solution” is a mirage, because even if it could be made to happen, it won’t be a solution, just another set of lines on maps across which only fear and hatred will flow in both directions. If there is ever to be actual peace, it can, I think, only come from integration, sharing, and individuals from each faith regarding one another as individual human beings.
Yes.

So sad, because there are clearly good people in both camps who WANT peace with the others ... but it's the warmongering a-holes (and the people with cash in the game) on both sides who currently have all the power.
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Cugel
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by Cugel »

reohn2 wrote: 28 May 2024, 8:51am The depths Israel will sink to:- https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... es-inquiry
From the article:-
Cohen, who was one of Netanyahu’s closest allies at the time and is emerging as a political force in his own right in Israel, personally led the Mossad’s involvement in an almost decade-long campaign by the country to undermine the court
And
According to accounts shared with ICC officials, he is alleged to have told her: “You should help us and let us take care of you. You don’t want to be getting into things that could compromise your security or that of your family.”

One individual briefed on Cohen’s activities said he had used “despicable tactics” against Bensouda as part of an ultimately unsuccessful effort to intimidate and influence her
Someone will be along here in a minute to dismiss this as "just a conspiracy theory" as the Israeli government are "the good guys" so couldn't possibly have been evil and mendacious plotters of horrific deeds. It must have been them others, who are the "real" bad guys.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
reohn2
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by reohn2 »

Cugel wrote: 28 May 2024, 10:47am
reohn2 wrote: 28 May 2024, 8:51am The depths Israel will sink to:- https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... es-inquiry
From the article:-
Cohen, who was one of Netanyahu’s closest allies at the time and is emerging as a political force in his own right in Israel, personally led the Mossad’s involvement in an almost decade-long campaign by the country to undermine the court
And
According to accounts shared with ICC officials, he is alleged to have told her: “You should help us and let us take care of you. You don’t want to be getting into things that could compromise your security or that of your family.”

One individual briefed on Cohen’s activities said he had used “despicable tactics” against Bensouda as part of an ultimately unsuccessful effort to intimidate and influence her
Someone will be along here in a minute to dismiss this as "just a conspiracy theory" as the Israeli government are "the good guys" so couldn't possibly have been evil and mendacious plotters of horrific deeds. It must have been them others, who are the "real" bad guys.
Nothing would surprise me less! :wink:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Psamathe
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by Psamathe »

Nearholmer wrote: 28 May 2024, 10:18am As regards the thread title: the more I read, and the more I think, the less hope I feel.

I don’t only mean less hope for Palestinians, I mean less hope for Israelis too. ...
The problem I see in the future is that Israel has created a significant group of people who have suffered beyond belief, who no longer have parents or families and who when offered a gun or a suicide vest are now receptive to vengeance.

I think Israel has been badly left down by its politicians who rather than working for peace are manipulating things for their own personal benefit and extreme ideologies.

Ian
Nearholmer
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by Nearholmer »

Another round is now hard-wired, assuming anyone will be left standing to enact another round.

Not only is there a generation of Palestinians forged to enact it, there is a generation of young Israeli IDF troops, men and women in their twenties, who have participated and so are mentally forged to forge their own children, plus there are the ultras among the settlers on the West Bank who are enacting DIY pogroms against their Arab neighbours.

How anyone can step back from this, I honestly don’t know.
Psamathe
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by Psamathe »

Nearholmer wrote: 28 May 2024, 12:18pm Another round is now hard-wired, assuming anyone will be left standing to enact another round.

Not only is there a generation of Palestinians forged to enact it, there is a generation of young Israeli IDF troops, men and women in their twenties, who have participated and so are mentally forged to forge their own children, plus there are the ultras among the settlers on the West Bank who are enacting DIY pogroms against their Arab neighbours.

How anyone can step back from this, I honestly don’t know.
It sounds a negative attitude but my one small hope is from the rest of the world. Biden wont do anything (waste of space) but Israel is becoming increasingly isolated, Palestinians (not Hamas) gaining increasing support with more countries seeking a better way forward. Maybe (hopefully or wishful thinking) a new Israeli leader might be more moderate and with pressure from the rest of the world (excl. US) seek a more peaceful solution.

My gut feel is the current Israeli action has already created a generation of Palestinians who will readily be taking up arms against Israel but maybe with more peace seeking Israeli leadership the consequences can be mitigated.

Ian
briansnail
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by briansnail »

Sometimes I wish a hostile spaceship from outer space would land there.
Israel and Palestine would quickly become blood brothers/sisters.As they band together as new firm friends to wipe out the new external threat.
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Psamathe
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by Psamathe »

Thinking earlier today: if Hamas were hiding out in Tel Aviv would the Israeli Government be sending in tanks and fighter aircraft flattening the city killing thousands of innocent non-Hamas civilians? If the answer is they wouldn't then what does that say about how they value the lives of different peoples?

Ian
francovendee
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by francovendee »

Israel has lost a lot of sympathy for the massacre because of their conduct in Gaza.
reohn2
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Re: Hope in Israel/Palestine

Post by reohn2 »

FWIW,IMHO Israel will continue the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza until they are all either murdered or driven out,it will also continue it's illegal building of Israeli property in the West Bank until it's driven out all Palestinians from there too.
The majority of countries who have Israeli influence will continue to supply them with weapons to continue their illegal slaughter and ethnic cleansing whilst wringing their hands and threatening what they'll never do.
Meanwhile Arab nation's in the region's hatred will grow and there'll never be a peace.

For a nation that was so badly treated by the Nazis in WW2 have themselves turned into a Nazi state.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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