BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
11
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
9%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
13%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
35
46%
 
Total votes: 76

UpWrong
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Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

38% EU tariff on Chinese cars heading our way. So much for our independence. That will push up the cost of the Dacia Spring. And put some people off moving to EVs .
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

UpWrong wrote: 12 Jun 2024, 8:21pm 38% EU tariff on Chinese cars heading our way. So much for our independence. That will push up the cost of the Dacia Spring. And put some people off moving to EVs .
The official statement:
"Commission investigation provisionally concludes that electric vehicle value chains in China benefit from unfair subsidies":
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_24_3231

Explainer from Politico:
https://www.politico.eu/article/europea ... ent-trade/

Jonathan
Biospace
Posts: 2333
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

al_yrpal wrote: 12 Jun 2024, 4:27pm Whatever, but its obvious that whoever comes up with a small vehicle like that thats the right price and chimes with public is going to make a mint.
It's possible, but small vehicles are notoriously difficult to make good margins on, increasingly so as so much standard equipment is demanded by the EU. However a good one, combined with good after sales service can capture a customer within a brand for decades.

Elsewhere, I've noted availability of safer, small cars is reduced because of regulation, which is likely to push more people into what are little more than 25mph mobile golf carts like the Citroen Ami, rather than a second hand small car like a Fiesta or similar.

Carlton green wrote: 12 Jun 2024, 4:11pm
UpWrong wrote: 11 Jun 2024, 10:40am UK review and test drive of the Microlino,

No official word on UK prices, but £21K or £22K with the medium battery pack (60-70 mile range in practice) is now expected. In many ways it's a bare bones product: no ABS, no AC, no electric windows and only one door of course. The body is a mixture of steel and aluminium so I hope the fastenings are insulated to prevent corrosion of the aluminium. Definitely desirable but at a price.
Desirable to some, maybe, but at that price the some must be very well heeled to the point of the price is only a figure (ie. whatever it is is small change to them) - well that or have a logic that’s near unique to them). There are doubtless some of those customers and production is small scale so large numbers of customers are unneeded. For that type of money I could buy a nearly new Leaf, and the like, so by my definition of practical motoring the Microlino has near no value at a hefty price tag.
As I've mentioned above, I hope this becomes a huge success not to verify predictions I've been making for a decade or so, but to challenge the idea that ever heavier cars with increasing energy consumptions and more massive batteries are desirable and somehow emblematic of success in life. Having such diminutive vehicles on the road will help highlight the nonsense of many of today's larger SUVs and BEVs.

Perhaps you're unwittingly falling into the same comparisons we all are liable to make, that a second hand (or even cheaper, new) conventional BEV would offer more metal, more battery and more equipment. I certainly do, and find it necessary to remind myself that advantages over conventional machinery include a much lower carbon footprint for many reasons, including greater chance of long-term ownership because of the simplicity, lack of regulations, small battery, ease of servicing and generally lower running costs. For many, it could be the element of fun.

If this car does sell in high numbers, some of its best qualities - simplicity and ease of repair, energy efficiency, small battery - will very likely be of most value to those buying when 10 or 15 years old.
reohn2
Posts: 45603
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

FWIW,IMHO the Microlino and other small BEVs like it Citreon Ami etc,will fail in the UK market,other than as novelty products,the reasons are simple:-
Price,crippling for what the car offers
Range,though possibly manageable
Comfort/ride quality on increasingly poorly maintained UK roads
The same disadvantages of a large car where traffic is anything but very light and as they're intended as city vehicles that will be a large factor and very frustrating one too in light of the next item on the list.
Lack of onboard bells and whistles such as air con,heating,radio etc.
On road prestige and bragging rights.
On road bullying by larger cars.This only becomes apparent if you've ever driven a small "cute" car.
At one time MrsR2 and I owned a Mondeo mine and a Mirca MrsR2s,whenever I drove the Micra it immediately became clear other cars tried to bully me,MrsR2 had the same experience.

There are some very good reasons you don't see many Smart cars about on UK roads.

If I had to commute in town or city where traffic is heavy I'd choose a scooter.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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Jdsk
Posts: 26394
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

I'd been thinking along the same lines. Microcars have been available in the UK for decades but sell in tiny numbers. i don't expect that to change because they're powered by electricity rather than combustion. But a combination of positive and negative (!) incentives enforced through regulation could make a big difference.

Jonathan
Carlton green
Posts: 3990
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Mike Sale’s post about his cabin car diverted my attention towards mobility scooters - to my mind it’s quite surprising what they can do and what, with a bit of relaxation of the law, they could do and particularly so in low speed limit areas.

One particular aspect to note about mobility scooters is that their use, dimensions, weight and speed are legally constrained. It struck me that whilst that precedent would not be easily accepted by motorists (in contrast mobility scooter users are a small and powerless group) it should be pushed onto them anyway. Cars have grown so much in size, weight and power as to have become unsuitable for shared use spaces (roads and other infrastructure).
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
reohn2
Posts: 45603
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 8:42am I'd been thinking along the same lines. Microcars have been available in the UK for decades but sell in tiny numbers. i don't expect that to change because they're powered by electricity rather than combustion. But a combination of positive and negative (!) incentives enforced through regulation could make a big difference.

Jonathan
My bold


Yes they could but if they ever do it won't be for a looonnnnggggg time
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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al_yrpal
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
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Re: BEVs

Post by al_yrpal »

Jdsk wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 8:42am I'd been thinking along the same lines. Microcars have been available in the UK for decades but sell in tiny numbers. i don't expect that to change because they're powered by electricity rather than combustion. But a combination of positive and negative (!) incentives enforced through regulation could make a big difference.

Jonathan
Electric microcars answer many of the problems in cities, but they need to be really inexpensive. I expect India to be the place that develops the right answer.
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Carlton green
Posts: 3990
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

al_yrpal wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 10:49am
Jdsk wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 8:42am I'd been thinking along the same lines. Microcars have been available in the UK for decades but sell in tiny numbers. i don't expect that to change because they're powered by electricity rather than combustion. But a combination of positive and negative (!) incentives enforced through regulation could make a big difference.

Jonathan
Electric microcars answer many of the problems in cities, but they need to be really inexpensive. I expect India to be the place that develops the right answer.
Here’s an interesting answer from India, it’s probably not be the right answer for UK drivers but a development of it might suit some here.
The electric tuk tuk : https://www.montraelectric.com/
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
reohn2
Posts: 45603
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Carlton green wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 1:09pm]
Here’s an interesting answer from India, it’s probably not be the right answer for UK drivers but a development of it might suit some here.
The electric tuk tuk : https://www.montraelectric.com/
Have you ever driven a three wheeler with one wheel at the front ?
They command a health respect when cornering moreso with a high CofG such as the TukTuk suffers from,given the way some UK drivers can't quite manage four wheelers it'd be carnage :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 10:49am Electric microcars answer many of the problems in cities, but they need to be really inexpensive. I expect India to be the place that develops the right answer.
They'd solve some of the emissions,granted but not traffic jams nor would they reduce journey times.
If you remember I posted a video up thread showing Vietnam rushhour,which you scoffed at that all were riding small motorcycles and scooters.I reminded you atmthe time that if they were all in cars(no matter what size)the city would be gridlocked.
As I've posted before cars,with few genuine exceptions,need banning from town and city centres in favour of good public transport,taxis and twowheelers,powered or not,that would reduce journey times and cut emissions at a stroke,though such a move is too radical for politicians to contemplate no matter how healthy the outcome!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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Biospace
Posts: 2333
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 8:42am I'd been thinking along the same lines. Microcars have been available in the UK for decades but sell in tiny numbers. i don't expect that to change because they're powered by electricity rather than combustion. But a combination of positive and negative (!) incentives enforced through regulation could make a big difference.

Jonathan
Have you noticed the plethora of really small vehicles in development, or heading to market? - if not, type 'microcar' into YouTube's search box. Twenty years ago, there were sufficient high quality small, practical, simple and cheap to buy and run conventional cars - 106s, AXs, Polos, Twingos, Corsas, Y10s - that nothing smaller with a roof made much sense. Today those cars are gone, or replaced with something larger, much more complicated and cost upwards of around £16k.

Historically there hasn't been sufficient profit in even smaller vehicles without them being unacceptably crude and noisy, in large part because of the proximity of engine to cabin; it was only in the crippling austerity of post-war years that anything so small sold well. The really little Fiats survived for decades on account of southern Italy's financial poverty and tiny city streets. Citroën abandoned their highly advanced C10 at the end of the 1950s, presumably because they realised making money from it would be impossible.

However, the advance of batteries and electric traction has made a really small car, which wasn't unacceptably crude and noisy, a real possibility. The difficulty is in designing something which is sufficiently appealing to the masses that they actively desire one, then feel sufficiently confident to invest their money.

All the regulatory incentives I've seen so far wrt electric vehicles have been to further subsidise the financially wealthier, I've little faith that our politicians have the ability to introduce anything which has a properly positive effect.

Our roads are unbelievably clogged, our roads full of cracks and holes, yet cars are growing ever heavier, more powerful and larger. Where battery power should have simplified and lightened, it is doing the opposite. Gordon Murray had a small, economical car ready for production years ago - https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/murray/t27 - this car could have been common on our roads, by now.

Instead, politicians are cowering at the thought of the Chinese swamping our markets, so are set to introduce huge tariffs which will only further set back Europe's struggling car industry.
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Would the T27 have made it even if were it refined for today's appalling roads.
The 2CV was the only car that had the suspension and larger diameter wheels to cope with today's UK roads but it wasn't a micro car,it's road footprint was about the same as a Ford Fiesta,the longer wheel base also helps with rider comfort.

The micro cars I'm seeing on the thread have small wheel diameter and a SWB,in the Microlino's case the two rear wheels have a smaller track than the front making it almost a three wheeler.
The other problem is weight,the micro car is generally a lightweight car and as such the suspension doesn't absorb the potholes,unlevel iron works,etc,of UK roads,but rather bounces over them.The solution is better road surfaces or sophisticated suspension the latter adds cost to a vehicle which is already over priced and the former ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

EDIT:- There are still some small cars still being made today,Aygo,Fiat 500 and Panda,Citroen C1,VW Up.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

reohn2 wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 2:54pm Would the T27 have made it even if were it refined for today's appalling roads.
The 2CV was the only car that had the suspension and larger diameter wheels to cope with today's UK roads but it wasn't a micro car,it's road footprint was about the same as a Ford Fiesta,the longer wheel base also helps with rider comfort.

The micro cars I'm seeing on the thread have small wheel diameter and a SWB,in the Microlino's case the two rear wheels have a smaller track than the front making it almost a three wheeler.
The other problem is weight,the micro car is generally a lightweight car and as such the suspension doesn't absorb the potholes,unlevel iron works,etc,of UK roads,but rather bounces over them.The solution is better road surfaces or sophisticated suspension the latter adds cost to a vehicle which is already over priced and the former ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

EDIT:- There are still some small cars still being made today,Aygo,Fiat 500 and Panda,Citroen C1,VW Up.
The only vehicles which cope adequately with bad potholes are those intended to climb over rockfields and through rivers, which ironically are those which deteriorate our road surfaces more rapidly, now they've become consumer desirables with hundreds of horsepower. If we're going to ban anything, ban the large 4x4 and SUV - but good luck trying.

13" wheels which the Microlino uses were the norm in the 1970s and much of the 80s for most family cars, the Mini had 10" wheels! Higher aspect ratios and smaller rims dealt with road imperfections better than a modern, much larger wheel with a lower tyre AR.

Lower mass requires carefully tuned suspension, because the ratio of unladen to laden weight will be greater. This is as much the case for a sub-900kg conventional 4 seat car as it is for the 2 seat Microlino. Murray's T2x cars were praised for their highly absorbent suspension, it sounds like the Microlino could be afford a little more compliance.

Yes, there are still some small, conventional cars being sold, but they're not commonplace as they once were. With lower fuel costs and less consumer 'guilt' associated with battery power, it's not surprising BEVs grow heavier and more powerful.

al_yrpal wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 10:49am Electric microcars answer many of the problems in cities, but they need to be really inexpensive. I expect India to be the place that develops the right answer.
I agree, the Indians are highly likely to find the solution to fill the gap, but so are we Europeans if our markets aren't over-protected.

It's possible that how we value personal transport will begin to shift over the next couple of decades - presently, marketing departments have convinced people that higher power and larger sizes are desirable, but people will sooner or later realise these 'qualities' are increasingly a handicap, most if not all the time.

A range of 150 miles wouldn't be a significant problem if vehicles are sufficiently economical and there were plenty of charging points - the problems occur when batteries have to be massive, on account of overweight, huge vehicles. If for nothing else, the electricity Grid.

If it's comfortable and well-mannered, I'd always choose a lightweight, nimble, fun to drive, more economical and practical machine.
reohn2
Posts: 45603
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Biospace wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 3:38pm
reohn2 wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 2:54pm Would the T27 have made it even if were it refined for today's appalling roads.
The 2CV was the only car that had the suspension and larger diameter wheels to cope with today's UK roads but it wasn't a micro car,it's road footprint was about the same as a Ford Fiesta,the longer wheel base also helps with rider comfort.

The micro cars I'm seeing on the thread have small wheel diameter and a SWB,in the Microlino's case the two rear wheels have a smaller track than the front making it almost a three wheeler.
The other problem is weight,the micro car is generally a lightweight car and as such the suspension doesn't absorb the potholes,unlevel iron works,etc,of UK roads,but rather bounces over them.The solution is better road surfaces or sophisticated suspension the latter adds cost to a vehicle which is already over priced and the former ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

EDIT:- There are still some small cars still being made today,Aygo,Fiat 500 and Panda,Citroen C1,VW Up.
The only vehicles which cope adequately with bad potholes are those intended to climb over rockfields and through rivers, which ironically are those which deteriorate our road surfaces more rapidly, now they've become consumer desirables with hundreds of horsepower. If we're going to ban anything, ban the large 4x4 and SUV - but good luck trying.

13" wheels which the Microlino uses were the norm in the 1970s and much of the 80s for most family cars, the Mini had 10" wheels! Higher aspect ratios and smaller rims dealt with road imperfections better than a modern, much larger wheel with a lower tyre AR.

Lower mass requires carefully tuned suspension, because the ratio of unladen to laden weight will be greater. This is as much the case for a sub-900kg conventional 4 seat car as it is for the 2 seat Microlino. Murray's T2x cars were praised for their highly absorbent suspension, it sounds like the Microlino could be afford a little more compliance.

Yes, there are still some small, conventional cars being sold, but they're not commonplace as they once were. With lower fuel costs and less consumer 'guilt' associated with battery power, it's not surprising BEVs grow heavier and more powerful.
I think we're in strenuous argreement :wink:
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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