extra energy = crop crises

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Cugel
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Cugel »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 8:59am Have you two heard of Alfred Nobel?
Dynamite, is it?
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mattheus
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by mattheus »

Cugel wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 10:30am
mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 8:59am Have you two heard of Alfred Nobel?
Dynamite, is it?
Might knock your socks off.

... and it might stop you posting such balderdash as this:

"Perhaps we should have listened to them rather than to "the scientists" insisting that the products of Progress should all be regarded as good unless scientifically proved not to be?"

Alfred Nobel showed a lot more wisdom than your ramblings do. It seems what you think of as "science" is mainly based on what your preferred tabloid prints.
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al_yrpal
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by al_yrpal »

Morning Star?

Al :lol:
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Cugel
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Cugel »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 12:18pm
Cugel wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 10:30am
mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 8:59am Have you two heard of Alfred Nobel?
Dynamite, is it?
Might knock your socks off.

... and it might stop you posting such balderdash as this:

"Perhaps we should have listened to them rather than to "the scientists" insisting that the products of Progress should all be regarded as good unless scientifically proved not to be?"

Alfred Nobel showed a lot more wisdom than your ramblings do. It seems what you think of as "science" is mainly based on what your preferred tabloid prints.
Keep the faith! Progress will save us all, via the implementation of wunnerful technologies based on the super-rational doings of scientists everywhere!

Gaw, you chaps with your lust for certainties and absolute truths, ushering in all sorts of mad behaviours and lethal stuff with glad cries of welcome. Many scientists, of course, have come to feel something rather less positive about their chosen mode. That Oppy thought he'd become "a destroyer of worlds" and he might yet be proved accurate in that assessment.

As I recall, even your exemplar Alfred had mixed feelings about his dynamite. After all, his brother was blown up by another varity of explosive, prompting Affie to make one that would only blow up enemies. On the other hand, he had somewhere in the region of ninety companies producing armaments of many lethal kinds, over the years. A great benefactor of mankind, then. (Those left alive or not maimed). Perhaps his prize was an attempt to say sorry? Probably not.

Me, I feel science is a good way to understand and even predict things. However, it may be naive to assume that all scientific institutions and their denizens are flawless pursuers and producers of nothing but the good. It may also be somewhat credulous to think that all that claims to be science is so. There's enormous amounts of pretend-science that adopts the terminology and cooks up ESOs (experiment-shaped objects) in attempts to legitimise the already-decided objectives or conclusions of all sorts of unpleasant agendas.

But perhaps I have an idea of the scientific tradition and its methods all wrong; and you can enlighten me? Would you care to produce your own understanding, definition, description and essential attributes of science? My impressions, I have to say, are that you may be somewhat confused on the matter. :-)
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reohn2
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by reohn2 »

The first question to a scientist should be "who's paying you for your findings/reports?"
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mattheus
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by mattheus »

Cugel wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:24pm Gaw, you chaps with your lust for certainties and absolute truths, ushering in all sorts of mad behaviours and lethal stuff with glad cries of welcome.
What (and whom) are you talking about?!? :P

Give me an example of my lust!

Or do you mean "you chaps" in the sense that you are in fact a chapess? (which is not a problem, but would give more clarity to your wibbling)

p.s. I have plenty of qualifications to show i understand science. Some printed on paper, some not. Your "understanding" seems to be based around reading dodgy journalism ...
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by mattheus »

reohn2 wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:28pm The first question to a scientist should be "who's paying you for your findings/reports?"
Doesn't really work if they died 80 (or 800) years ago.
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by reohn2 »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:36pm
reohn2 wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:28pm The first question to a scientist should be "who's paying you for your findings/reports?"
Doesn't really work if they died 80 (or 800) years ago.
???
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mattheus
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by mattheus »

reohn2 wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:38pm
mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:36pm
reohn2 wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:28pm The first question to a scientist should be "who's paying you for your findings/reports?"
Doesn't really work if they died 80 (or 800) years ago.
???
I'll let you think a little longer on that tricky concept ...

In the meantime, consider that very often, science is done for science's sake. Sometimes the funding is negligible e.g. student theses. Much early science was done by the independently wealthy (cos they had all the labs and equipment).

(Of course those wanting to cast aspersions on the "the scientists" - often making out that They Know Better - prefer a different version of events.)
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Cugel
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Cugel »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 3:41pm
reohn2 wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:38pm
mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:36pm
Doesn't really work if they died 80 (or 800) years ago.
???
I'll let you think a little longer on that tricky concept ...

In the meantime, consider that very often, science is done for science's sake. Sometimes the funding is negligible e.g. student theses. Much early science was done by the independently wealthy (cos they had all the labs and equipment).

(Of course those wanting to cast aspersions on the "the scientists" - often making out that They Know Better - prefer a different version of events.)
No description of your concept of science and the scientific method has yet emerged! Did you just forget? :-)

We can ask a great deal about dead scientists and their doings. In fact, discovering what their motives were, including who might be funding them to achieve what, becomes slightly easier as time passes and historians burrow away. We can also more easily see the wider consequences of their furtlings and discoveries.

Science done for science's sake doesn't mean that what's done and what emerges is somehow automatically pure and entirely for the good of all. In fact, scientists who claim that they're above all that political, economic and social stuff are often the worst offenders when it comes to generating highly dangerous knowledge. "It's just knowledge and so a good thing", they cry. It might be if that knowledge wasn't employed by now knowing humans to wreak various forms of havoc and evil deeds.

****************

It's rarely a wise approach to become an ideological adherent of some particular methodology, tradition, religion or any other organised body of knowledge and knowledge discovery. "Surely it is", you cry. "All knowledge is good". Perhaps a consideration of the notion of Pandora's box and the Christian tale of biting apples in The Garden of Eden might stimulate a consideration of why knowing things can be not such a good thing - perhaps a very bad thing indeed.

****************
On the other hand, the memetic evolutionary process that generates science and other methods for humans lusting after knowledge has a life of its own. The fact is, no consideration of the possible deleterious outcomes will stop science or any other knowledge-discovery process doing what it does, via one set of human brains (and now our computers) or another. We jes' cain't help ourselves. Shouldn't have opened that box, Pandora! Shouldn't have bit that apple, Adam! Too late!!

Mind some rely on hope or a Big Saviour in The Sky. Neither seem to be working just now.
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reohn2
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by reohn2 »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 3:41pm
reohn2 wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:38pm
mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 2:36pm
Doesn't really work if they died 80 (or 800) years ago.
???
I'll let you think a little longer on that tricky concept ...

In the meantime, consider that very often, science is done for science's sake. Sometimes the funding is negligible e.g. student theses. Much early science was done by the independently wealthy (cos they had all the labs and equipment).

(Of course those wanting to cast aspersions on the "the scientists" - often making out that They Know Better - prefer a different version of events.)
I'm aware science is very often done for science sake,but also often scientists are bought by those who wish to make profit.
YVMV mine won't
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Biospace
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Biospace »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 8:59am Have you two heard of Alfred Nobel?
Would you explain how you see this to be relevant to the post I made above it? Presuming you're referring to me, in "you two", that is.
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Cugel
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Cugel »

Biospace wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 5:12pm
mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 8:59am Have you two heard of Alfred Nobel?
Would you explain how you see this to be relevant to the post I made above it? Presuming you're referring to me, in "you two", that is.
Alf give prizes to best scientists, which means they be goodies, see? All the other ones are good too but not quite as good. They will save us all from The Bad Things, I'm sure, with cleverness and finding things out.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
cycle tramp
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by cycle tramp »

Well.. its page 8 now, and there's been no mention of forest farming, permaculture, or growing different types of food crop together so that plants provide mutual support and resilience to one another, nor the resilience of heritage crops or the damaging practices of monoculture farming...
Last edited by cycle tramp on 14 Jun 2024, 7:43am, edited 1 time in total.
Unlimited economic growth in a world of finite resources doesn't fit nor does it guarantee happiness.
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Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by cycle tramp »

Cugel wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 7:31pm
Biospace wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 5:12pm
mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 8:59am Have you two heard of Alfred Nobel?
Would you explain how you see this to be relevant to the post I made above it? Presuming you're referring to me, in "you two", that is.
Alf give prizes to best scientists, which means they be goodies, see? All the other ones are good too but not quite as good. They will save us all from The Bad Things, I'm sure, with cleverness and finding things out.
To be fair I suspect many of the answers we are seeking have already been solved by cultures that we in the western world believe are too primative to learn anything from...
Here's crop farming from the view of some of the Battle American Indians. .
Maize or corn would be sown with beans and cucumber or squashes...
The maize or corn would provide support for the beans to climb, the large leaves of the squash plants would reduce weed growth around all three plants and keep the soil shaded to stop it from drying out in hot weather. The beans in return would feed the soil and therfore the maize and squash plants. The mixture of planting reduces the threat of plant virus and also insect attack. The mixture of crops in one space meant that although yields were reduced for each crop and more difficult to harvest compared to monoculture- the crops themselves required less maintenance and the ground would always produce at least one type of crop depending on the weather conditions. In best weather conditions all three would produce a viable crop.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 14 Jun 2024, 7:46am, edited 2 times in total.
Unlimited economic growth in a world of finite resources doesn't fit nor does it guarantee happiness.
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