UK Politics

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al_yrpal
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Re: UK Politics

Post by al_yrpal »

Cugel wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 7:19pm
al_yrpal wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 5:21pm I have been going through the manifestos point by point and awarding scores to each policy. Some policies may result in a negative score. Entering all the scores into a decision matrix will identify which party I will vote for.

Al
Ah, but what are your scoring parameters and benchmarks? How did you determine them? How do your differentiate the wild and improbable promises from policy promises that a) are feasible and b) meant?

And then there are the unspoken and also the secret intentions. How to score for those?
Quite Cugel, one has to determine ones own parameters when considering who to vote for. Each to their own.....

Al
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pwa
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Re: UK Politics

Post by pwa »

YouGov yesterday was putting Reform ahead of the Conservatives for the first time. Conservatives 18%, Reform 19%, and Labour at 37%. Now what jumps out at you is that 18+19=37. As things stand, both Reform and the Conservatives are heading for a very low number of seats. But if they formed a pact they could challenge Labour.

Of course it isn't quite that simple. For the Tories it would be an act that would lose them support at the more moderate end. Not every Tory supporter would be happy to lurch so far to the right. Some might be prompted to flip to what looks like a very centrist Labour.
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al_yrpal
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Re: UK Politics

Post by al_yrpal »

Suggest you read Reform's manifesto and then figure out why you think its hard right.

Al
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Nearholmer
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Nearholmer »

It’s obsessed with immigration and a morbid fear of “wokies”, whatever its manifesto says. Its supporters know that (82% of them naming immigration as the top issue), so whatever it says on the tin, everyone and their dog, I’m sure you included, knows what’s inside: chopped gammon.
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al_yrpal
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Re: UK Politics

Post by al_yrpal »

Nearholmer wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 7:23am It’s obsessed with immigration and a morbid fear of “wokies”, whatever its manifesto says. Its supporters know that (82% of them naming immigration as the top issue), so whatever it says on the tin, everyone and their dog, I’m sure you included, knows what’s inside: chopped gammon.
Thats just what you believe... :lol:

Al
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Nearholmer
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Nearholmer »

My point is that a goodly proportion of their supporters believe that too, and they like the smell of chopped gammon, whereas it makes me feel very queasy indeed.
reohn2
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Re: UK Politics

Post by reohn2 »

Nearholmer wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 7:36am My point is that a goodly proportion of their supporters believe that too, and they like the smell of chopped gammon, whereas it makes me feel very queasy indeed.
Anything that has Nigel Farage as it's head is nost likely a snake in the grass,add ro that Richard Tice and Lee Anderson and you have a nest of vipers.
Manifesto are a selling strategy,that's all,it's what's between the lines that matters.
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Cugel
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Cugel »

al_yrpal wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 10:33pm
Cugel wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 7:19pm
al_yrpal wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 5:21pm I have been going through the manifestos point by point and awarding scores to each policy. Some policies may result in a negative score. Entering all the scores into a decision matrix will identify which party I will vote for.

Al
Ah, but what are your scoring parameters and benchmarks? How did you determine them? How do your differentiate the wild and improbable promises from policy promises that a) are feasible and b) meant?

And then there are the unspoken and also the secret intentions. How to score for those?
Quite Cugel, one has to determine ones own parameters when considering who to vote for. Each to their own.....

Al
Yes indeed - but I feel that many first decide the result they want (who they want to vote for) then construct various parameters to ensure that what they already intend to do acquires a glamour of rationality. It's a rare human who doesn't perform such mental flip-flops so as to do what our churning dark unconscious has already instructed us to do.

We do love to dress up our whims and predilections in a coat shining with "rational" or "reasonable" badges and emblems. There are endless methods and potted procedures for doing so. My own preferred method is to give into what my emotional responses to political attitudes exhibit then to seek any rhetoric I can find to "justify" such emotionally-driven preferences.

I suspect this is what everyone does, in one form or another. Oh yes they do! :-)
Last edited by Cugel on 14 Jun 2024, 8:24am, edited 1 time in total.
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francovendee
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Re: UK Politics

Post by francovendee »

reohn2 wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 7:56am
Nearholmer wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 7:36am My point is that a goodly proportion of their supporters believe that too, and they like the smell of chopped gammon, whereas it makes me feel very queasy indeed.
Anything that has Nigel Farage as it's head is nost likely a snake in the grass,add ro that Richard Tice and Lee Anderson and you have a nest of vipers.
Manifesto are a selling strategy,that's all,it's what's between the lines that matters.
Totally agree, Reform just attracts extreme voters. Without doubt immigration being high on a list that attracts them.
In their scramble to find candidates, who knows what sort of candidates they'll put up. None without 'form' I'd guess.
It's very convenient to point at the problems of high immigration without a credible alternative to filling jobs.
Brexit all over again, gold at the end of the rainbow.

Just an onlooker as I'm not voting. My wife is, and they are sending her postal vote to France on the 24th July. Around 10 days to get it here and returned in time. Somehow I think it'll miss the deadline.
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Cugel
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Cugel »

al_yrpal wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 7:17am Suggest you read Reform's manifesto and then figure out why you think its hard right.

Al
There are signs and portents of Farago & Co's true intents but, as has already been pointed out, such a "political party" (actually a business) can emit any old PR it likes, containing all sorts of false promises. It'll never have to fulfill any of them.

Another poster tells us that he tends to judge politicians by their character - those attitudes and their actual doings that expose a truer picture of what sort of policies they're actually likely to pursue and implement in future, if awarded the power to do so. Personally I'm wary of a character-based judgement because many politicians are just as good at creating glamourous (attractive, persuasive and entirely false) self-portraits as they are at spinning convincing policy lies. However .....

If we can alight upon criteria by which to judge those aspects of character (and personality) that allow us to separate the Bokum-like entertainment factors (hiding a malevolent and destructive incompetence) from the sort of character traits exhibited by, say, the likes of an Attlee, perhaps such character-based judgements are possible?

Of course, those that grok mad and aggressive intolerant loons will discover and vote for their characters whilst those of us hoping for tolerance and equanimity will find ours (if there any of those left to find).

What character traits ring your bell, Al? :-)
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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Cugel
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Cugel »

Nearholmer wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 7:23am It’s obsessed with immigration and a morbid fear of “wokies”, whatever its manifesto says. Its supporters know that (82% of them naming immigration as the top issue), so whatever it says on the tin, everyone and their dog, I’m sure you included, knows what’s inside: chopped gammon.
Preserved gammon is perhaps more accurate. The question is: what's the preservative? A large dollop of The Bwitish Class System, for a start. And a dangerous amount of xenophobia-preservative of course, as you mention. An older term for preserved gammon is, of course, reactionary bigot.

Best not to open a tin of it, anyway. :-)
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djnotts
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Re: UK Politics

Post by djnotts »

^ "YouGov yesterday was putting Reform ahead of the Conservatives for the first time. Conservatives 18%, Reform 19%, and Labour at 37%. Now what jumps out at you is that 18+19=37. As things stand, both Reform and the Conservatives are heading for a very low number of seats. But if they formed a pact they could challenge Labour."

So, 19% ultra-right, 18% extreme-right, 37% centre-right. The first 2 will very probably coalesce around Farage plus the likes of Cruella. We'd be in even deeper trouble, sooner, with PR.
If Starmer does gain a majority then in 4-5 years time Tories and Reform will surely unite.

The English will get the racist, ultra-right, ultra-capitalism, strong leadership so many of them so crave.

I don't think as many of them will enjoy it as much as they think they will.

But hey, that's "democracy"!
reohn2
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Re: UK Politics

Post by reohn2 »

francovendee wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 8:10am ......In their scramble to find candidates, who knows what sort of candidates they'll put up. None without 'form' I'd guess.
On that topic,Farage interview yesterday:- https://youtu.be/gBQEwQbk8Lc?si=j5J4dtNFBTQ3OjvY
It's very convenient to point at the problems of high immigration without a credible alternative to filling jobs.
Brexit all over again, gold at the end of the rainbow
Exactly!
Farage the grifter at work,stirring up hatred without a solution to the problems

PS,and talks of gold at the end of the rainbow did you know the Tories have turned the corner and things a looking great when we follow the plan......
I even heard Mordaunt yesterday claiming all the other parties were going to raise taxes,the gall of the Tory woman!
Last edited by reohn2 on 14 Jun 2024, 8:55am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nearholmer
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Nearholmer »

^^

Don’t you get to vote for or against a different national-populist?
Jdsk
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Jdsk »

pwa wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 5:10am YouGov yesterday was putting Reform ahead of the Conservatives for the first time. Conservatives 18%, Reform 19%, and Labour at 37%. Now what jumps out at you is that 18+19=37. As things stand, both Reform and the Conservatives are heading for a very low number of seats. But if they formed a pact they could challenge Labour.

Of course it isn't quite that simple. For the Tories it would be an act that would lose them support at the more moderate end. Not every Tory supporter would be happy to lurch so far to the right. Some might be prompted to flip to what looks like a very centrist Labour.
Yes, it's just one poll so far but the psychological effect is there. As you say it won't play out directly in seats. And the ballot papers can't now be changed, so it would have to be some other type of pact.

I expect it to have a massive effect on the future of the Conservative Party.

And possibly on who gets the label of Her Majesty's Opposition.

Jonathan
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