extra energy = crop crises

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
cycle tramp
Posts: 3917
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by cycle tramp »

The idea of just growing one type of food source on one piece of land for ever and ever is over. Its done. it's failed. We're now back to testing ideas, like trying to keep pigs or chickens in orchards, how much fruit for human consumption can a hedgerow grow (around the edges of the fields in which cattle are kept), how bee hives can increase yields of oil seed rape. Whether planting a mixture of herbs with crop plants reduces pest damage..

....and we need to be supporting these farmers who ate taking the financial risk and relearning all this stuff.
Obtaing a more comfortable riding position https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news/how- ... p-bar-bike
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5803
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Cugel »

cycle tramp wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 7:43am The idea of just growing one type of food source on one piece of land for ever and ever is over. Its done. it's failed. We're now back to testing ideas, like trying to keep pigs or chickens in orchards, how much fruit for human consumption can a hedgerow grow (around the edges of the fields in which cattle are kept), how bee hives can increase yields of oil seed rape. Whether planting a mixture of herbs with crop plants reduces pest damage..

....and we need to be supporting these farmers who ate taking the financial risk and relearning all this stuff.
Farmers can be very reactionary and short-termist indeed, especially in our modern just-in-time economy. They're also themselves exploited and driven by supermarkets and other retailers of their products who have the power to reduce farmers to serfdom, dictating their every condition and practice.

Wales is currently seeing a farmer-reaction to those rather small policies of the Senedd to attempt a bit of a push against the degradations reducing biodiversity and generally degrading the land and soil in various modern and scientific fashions.

Plenty of sheep and nowt else. Plenty of cattle along with their river-polluting and atmosphere-degrading body-expulsions. A general desire to murder wildlife, from crows to badgers and a lot in between. A general refusal to change, even those practices that are self-harming to the farmers.

If I was the goddess Gaia, I'd be sending them some very uncomfortable dreams to persuade them to change their ways! But its likely that DEFRA and them supermarkets would only beat them back into line. Sadly, many would go willingly.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
mattheus
Posts: 5348
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by mattheus »

Biospace wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 5:12pm
mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 8:59am Have you two heard of Alfred Nobel?
Would you explain how you see this to be relevant to the post I made above it? Presuming you're referring to me, in "you two", that is.
Roughly - cos a lot of water has frothed by since - the point is that Alfred Nobel did realise the huge potential harm in his creation(s). The popular** version of the story is that he was shocked when he realised the harm his invention [dynamite] would do, and created the prizes to try to rectify this,

The Nobel prizes are now widely* seen as awards for peaceful work.



*of course some CUK posters are too smart to fall for this. I'm sure they will advise you if asked :-) oh, and please don't mention Kissinger.
**The reality is a bit different! An exercise for the reader ...
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5803
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Cugel »

mattheus wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 8:57am
Biospace wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 5:12pm
mattheus wrote: 13 Jun 2024, 8:59am Have you two heard of Alfred Nobel?
Would you explain how you see this to be relevant to the post I made above it? Presuming you're referring to me, in "you two", that is.
Roughly - cos a lot of water has frothed by since - the point is that Alfred Nobel did realise the huge potential harm in his creation(s). The popular** version of the story is that he was shocked when he realised the harm his invention [dynamite] would do, and created the prizes to try to rectify this,

The Nobel prizes are now widely* seen as awards for peaceful work.



*of course some CUK posters are too smart to fall for this. I'm sure they will advise you if asked :-) oh, and please don't mention Kissinger.
**The reality is a bit different! An exercise for the reader ...
.... But Kissinger .... :-) and several others of his stripe who seemed to have a very strange notion of peace, as did those awarding the medal.

And let's not forget the numerous omissions, as one scientist managed to annex all the glory for themselves despite the large contributions of other scientists ignored for lacking the right connections in the various scientific Establishments.

Ole Nobel didn't seem so shocked by the dynamite uses that he stopped all those armament factories of his from making even worser things based on his scientific enquiries and discoveries. But perhaps obliterating loads of other humans in wars allowed only the goodies to win?

Those medals look more like a hidey screen than a compensation.

Some CUK poster.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
mattheus
Posts: 5348
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by mattheus »

Next you'll be telling me there would no war (or other human violence) without those meddling evil scientists.
mattheus
Posts: 5348
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by mattheus »

You can read the "accepted" history of climate science here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... ge_science

But eny fule even half as wise as Cugel saw it all coming decades before. Clearly "the scientists" suppressed all this research, preferring to promote their new ways to grow more sheep whilst killing 99% of british bees. [they didn't tell people about the side-effect]
Biospace
Posts: 2333
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Biospace »

cycle tramp wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 7:27am Well.. its page 8 now, and there's been no mention of forest farming, permaculture, or growing different types of food crop together so that plants provide mutual support and resilience to one another, nor the resilience of heritage crops or the damaging practices of monoculture farming...
I mentioned regenerative farming and how contemporary, conventional farming causes so many problems, the huge energy demands of modern wheat varieties and more... but it appeared to fall on stony ground.
cycle tramp wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 7:37am To be fair I suspect many of the answers we are seeking have already been solved by cultures that we in the western world believe are too primative to learn anything from...
Here's crop farming from the view of some of the Battle American Indians. .
Maize or corn would be sown with beans and cucumber or squashes...
The maize or corn would provide support for the beans to climb, the large leaves of the squash plants would reduce weed growth around all three plants and keep the soil shaded to stop it from drying out in hot weather. The beans in return would feed the soil and therfore the maize and squash plants. The mixture of planting reduces the threat of plant virus and also insect attack. The mixture of crops in one space meant that although yields were reduced for each crop and more difficult to harvest compared to monoculture- the crops themselves required less maintenance and the ground would always produce at least one type of crop depending on the weather conditions. In best weather conditions all three would produce a viable crop.
A cynic might say that once big business has worked out how to extract vast sums of money using this sort of approach, the peer-reviewed scientific papers will start appearing in number, the media will start reporting and soon enough a revolution will be heralded.
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5803
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Cugel »

mattheus wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 3:32pm You can read the "accepted" history of climate science here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... ge_science

But eny fule even half as wise as Cugel saw it all coming decades before. Clearly "the scientists" suppressed all this research, preferring to promote their new ways to grow more sheep whilst killing 99% of british bees. [they didn't tell people about the side-effect]
Ha ha - I was as taken-in by the notion of an infallible scientific method and usage along with everyone else, as the notion was thoroughly installed in skool via chemistry and physics A-levels, taught rote-fashion and rather in the same way they taught us the glorious history of The Bwitish Empire. Yet another good guy / bad guy tale. Those poor ignorant medieval and other non-scientific folk!

Happily there are any number of folk much cleverer than me who furtle out alternative views, backed up by all sorts of histories, events, evidence and other considerations that recognise that the latest fashionable mode of thinking doesn't make it somehow absolutely true, without danger or a possibility of misuse. And a rather less ideological approach to thinking about stuff does seem a rather more enlightening way to understand the full range of any major human mode of thinking and doing.

Mind, I didn't need better theorists' examinations of the nature of science and its methods to grasp intuitively, at an early age, that there was something nasty about all sorts of things emerging from science. (Whilst technology of various kinds, including the nasty kinds engendered by and for warfare, preceded what we now regard as the scientific method et al, science has now become an absolute necessity and precursor to the wild acceleration of all sorts of technological consequences). it was always fairly obvious, with no formal "study" needed at all, that motorised transport, vast despoiling industries and the plunder-rape-destruction of natural habitats underpinned by a lot of scientific discovery was likely to turn out badly.

Not obvious to rabid consumers or to the more rabidly obsessive scientists, mind. Or to the businesses that employed them. The "white hot heat of technology" and the science behind it would save us all from lives that would otherwise be nasty, brutish and short. And it was true for lucky British boomers & other such groups. Not so for millions and perhaps billions of others about the planet, colonised and exploited and warred away ever more by that white heat.
**************

Science has also become a fashionable claim for all sorts of academic subjects, despite them following methods that have nothing more than a thin cover of scientific jargon on top of a lot of wild guesswork and ideological posturing that would better be called philosophy-in-disguise. Or just plain ideology, of more or less coherence. Invent a mad but self-serving theory or product then stick a label saying "scientifically proved" on it. You're 90% to getting it accepted unquestioned as a good thing.

***************
As with so many other human procedures and methods, science has a huge potential for utility and the good. But it also has a vast potential for the other stuff. And it's methods are not operating in a pure vacuum of entirely rational behaviours but in the corrupt human world in which everything, including the scientists, can be suborned to damaging intents. Defending "science" as somehow immune from doing damage just because its the best method humans have yet discovered to predict and control things seems rather like making dynamite and pretending it can only ever be used to acquire nice rock to make roofs and roads, with no consequences other than such nice ones.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
mattheus
Posts: 5348
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by mattheus »

Where does he get the energy from?!? :lol:
Biospace
Posts: 2333
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Biospace »

There’s more scientific fraud, more vested interests concealing their influence, more Big Money using science for selfish reasons than most people realise.

In the days when religion controlled millions, it was corrupted by vested interests and the very rich. Eventually the discipline of science came of age and managed to overturn the previously unquestionable Truth with which the Church had accumulated riches beyond belief, for centuries.

Let's hope those involved in science feel able to speak out when they see dubious practice, it's not easy if funding is at stake. Even when it's not, as we've seen in various national scandals, being a whistleblower appears to be a very lonely, unpleasant place.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tion-watch
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... arch-shows
https://www.bmj.com/content/312/7034/789
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8312
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by simonineaston »

I'm pleased to say that I'm now enjoying myself at a local community farm - or market garden, really. I'm working there one morning a week, unpaid, helping to pack their veg. ready for delivery. The deal is I get to help myself to any leftovers. Thus I have all the fresh grown veg. I can eat ! I had some lovely tender tasty broad beans this week, which I haven't had since my youth. And I spend sometime with lovely positive and energetic people which goes some way to offsetting my natural tendency to be snippy, negative and unpleasant... :)
And the best bit is - they're going to let me help maintain their vintage tractor!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
reohn2
Posts: 45603
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by reohn2 »

Biospace wrote: 15 Jun 2024, 9:21am There’s more scientific fraud, more vested interests concealing their influence, more Big Money using science for selfish reasons than most people realise.

In the days when religion controlled millions, it was corrupted by vested interests and the very rich. Eventually the discipline of science came of age and managed to overturn the previously unquestionable Truth with which the Church had accumulated riches beyond belief, for centuries.

Let's hope those involved in science feel able to speak out when they see dubious practice, it's not easy if funding is at stake. Even when it's not, as we've seen in various national scandals, being a whistleblower appears to be a very lonely, unpleasant place.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tion-watch
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... arch-shows
https://www.bmj.com/content/312/7034/789
Spot on!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Biospace
Posts: 2333
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Biospace »

simonineaston wrote: 15 Jun 2024, 10:32am I'm pleased to say that I'm now enjoying myself at a local community farm - or market garden, really. I'm working there one morning a week, unpaid, helping to pack their veg. ready for delivery. The deal is I get to help myself to any leftovers. Thus I have all the fresh grown veg. I can eat ! I had some lovely tender tasty broad beans this week, which I haven't had since my youth. And I spend sometime with lovely positive and energetic people which goes some way to offsetting my natural tendency to be snippy, negative and unpleasant... :)
And the best bit is - they're going to let me help maintain their vintage tractor!
That sounds very rewarding, our local farm shop's shelves have recently started to refill with produce and the taste buds approve - the land has never been sprayed with contents of containers labelled with skull and crossbone symbols.
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8312
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by simonineaston »

Biospace wrote: 16 Jun 2024, 4:13pm That sounds very rewarding, our local farm shop's shelves have recently started to refill with produce and the taste buds approve - the land has never been sprayed with contents of containers labelled with skull and crossbone symbols.
As an interesting aside, I have a friend who's a long term Bristol resident and I was chatting to her last week about the site. She recalled as a teenager riding down the nearby track on a pony, said track shortly becoming the M32. She added that her grandpa, himself a farmer, had told her that the old market gardens back then enjoyed some of the most productive soil he knew of. All a bit anecdotal of course but fun to listen to, nevertheless!
Apparently, the ground narrowly escaped development as a 'park and ride' concrete and asphalt desert a couple years ago...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Biospace
Posts: 2333
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: extra energy = crop crises

Post by Biospace »

simonineaston wrote: 16 Jun 2024, 4:58pm As an interesting aside, I have a friend who's a long term Bristol resident and I was chatting to her last week about the site. She recalled as a teenager riding down the nearby track on a pony, said track shortly becoming the M32. She added that her grandpa, himself a farmer, had told her that the old market gardens back then enjoyed some of the most productive soil he knew of. All a bit anecdotal of course but fun to listen to, nevertheless!
Apparently, the ground narrowly escaped development as a 'park and ride' concrete and asphalt desert a couple years ago...
It's good to talk directly with those who remember life before the chemical industry pushed out techniques of farming and food production which had been perfected over centuries. Food simply doesn't taste as good as it once did is a phrase which recurs, anyone who grows their own without repeated chemical use or has access to local, traditionally grown food knows how much better it tastes.

Experts used to try to insist this was due to older people losing their taste sensitivity, but more recently science clearly demonstrates both soil and food is less healthy than it once was.

Here's a BBC webpage from 2022, which doesn't load correctly for me, so here's the link to a web archive of the page:
http://web.archive.org/web/202202070922 ... nutrients/
  • "On average, across the 43 vegetables analysed, calcium content declined 16%, iron by 15% and phosphorus by 9%. The vitamins riboflavin and ascorbic acid both dropped significantly, while there were slight declines in protein levels. Similar decreases have been observed in the nutrients present in wheat. What's happening?"
It has become common practice for farmers to "finish off" wheat crops with a spray of glyphosate to make their harvest quicker and easier, a practice the EU is banning with no glyphosate to be sprayed with 60 days of harvest. Under public pressure, large food processors are aiming to do similarly in North America, https://www.asyousow.org/press-releases ... griculture.
Post Reply