UK Politics

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Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: UK Politics

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 1:19pm
Jdsk wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 5:54pm
pwa wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 5:08pm ...
I will risk the ire of some here by saying that although I am certain to vote Labour, fair mindedness makes me point out that some Reform policies are, on the face of it, attractive. (Umbrella deployed). For example, raising the threshold for paying the basic rate of income tax to £20k. If and when that can be afforded, that seems to me to be a thing to aspire to. Taking a lot of low earners out of income tax altogether. But two things ring alarm bells with me. Firstly, Reform attracts some folk who are plain bigots, with a chip on the shoulder about all sorts of minorities. And secondly, Reform claim that climate change is natural, not man-made, and they therefore want to stop wasting money (as they see it) on measures to mitigate it. A Trump-like stance actually. I will worry if they ever look like getting into Number 10.
Totally agree about the importance of studying their policies on their merits. (And I hope that the umbrella isn't needed.)
Reform have published their manifesto:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/reform ... 1718625371

Jonathan
It will be interesting to see how the electorate respond to it, if that "response" at the ballot box can be seperated from anti-Conservative voting.

Looking through the manifesto my only real thought is that if the UK electrorate fall for such twaddle maybe deserve everything they'll get and they'll have to pay/suffer for it. Maybe the "telling" indication is "He[Farage] also says, realistically, that he is not going to win the election." so I assume he feels he can spout any twaddle as he wont be held to account.

Ian
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Cugel
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Cugel »

Jdsk wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 12:21pm
Psamathe wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 12:09pm At last Rachel Reves (Labour) is highlighting Labour's failings to the electorate
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/jun/17/reform-labour-nigel-farage-conservatives-uk-general-election-live[/url] @11:19BST wrote:Reeves tells business leaders Labour manifesto has 'your fingerprints all over it'
At a meeting of Labour’s infrastructure council, set up by the party last year, Reeves said:

I really hope that when you do read it, or if you read the section on the economy, that you will see your fingerprints all over it.
...
Business doesn't get a single vote yet Labour seems to be focusing on them and their interests. The electorate (real people) do get votes and are facing no help for the NHS, horrendous cuts to public services and yet Labour focus on business (and the wealthy).
This looks sensible to me. If productivity increases there's more output that can be taxed and more tax that can be used for public services. That's in the public interest.

Jonathan
Well, that would depend on the type of products and how they're produced. "Business" to date has done a vast amount of serious damage to all kinds of things, not least people, the biosphere, the planet and economies of various places and sizes.

If the manifesto is not just a PR attempt to placate "middle England" (aka the rabid gutter press and the concerns of those who promote it, along with the dafties who read it, believe it and vote accordingly) but rather a serious intention to go on pursuing the sort of toxic "growth that's the norm, along with the aristocratic desires of those who benefit from such growth, then its about as far from "sensible" as one could imagine.

My own wishful thunk is that Reevy is, once in power, going to do an Attlee, translated into policies that'll have similar objectives but methods that'll work in today's world. But that would mean some reining-in of all sorts of nasty business practices, which "business" and its helpmeets would not care for. There are signs in that manifesto that the nastier business practices may be at least be reduced .... but those signs are few and far between compared to the strokes offered to business orcs and goblins.

Hope has a lot of work to do in the face of all those Pandora-troubles long loose in the world.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: UK Politics

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Farage is top headline on BBC website for a bit this morning.
Then replaced by a "live" feed!

And lower down another headline with him pictured about Welsh stuff.

A party with one (traitor) MP and Farage himself directly responsible for much of the damage done to us in the UK in the last decade
Other parties not so prominent.

It's not right, it's biased coverage from the BBC again.
Just what is their agenda??
Jdsk
Posts: 26394
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: UK Politics

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 1:19pm
Jdsk wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 5:54pm
pwa wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 5:08pm ...
I will risk the ire of some here by saying that although I am certain to vote Labour, fair mindedness makes me point out that some Reform policies are, on the face of it, attractive. (Umbrella deployed). For example, raising the threshold for paying the basic rate of income tax to £20k. If and when that can be afforded, that seems to me to be a thing to aspire to. Taking a lot of low earners out of income tax altogether. But two things ring alarm bells with me. Firstly, Reform attracts some folk who are plain bigots, with a chip on the shoulder about all sorts of minorities. And secondly, Reform claim that climate change is natural, not man-made, and they therefore want to stop wasting money (as they see it) on measures to mitigate it. A Trump-like stance actually. I will worry if they ever look like getting into Number 10.
Totally agree about the importance of studying their policies on their merits. (And I hope that the umbrella isn't needed.)
Reform have published their manifesto:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/reform ... 1718625371
IFS comment on the financial bits:
https://ifs.org.uk/articles/reform-uk-m ... o-reaction

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: UK Politics

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 2:12pm
Jdsk wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 1:19pm
Jdsk wrote: 14 Jun 2024, 5:54pm Totally agree about the importance of studying their policies on their merits. (And I hope that the umbrella isn't needed.)
Reform have published their manifesto:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/reform ... 1718625371
It will be interesting to see how the electorate respond to it, if that "response" at the ballot box can be seperated from anti-Conservative voting.

Looking through the manifesto my only real thought is that if the UK electrorate fall for such twaddle maybe deserve everything they'll get and they'll have to pay/suffer for it. Maybe the "telling" indication is "He[Farage] also says, realistically, that he is not going to win the election." so I assume he feels he can spout any twaddle as he wont be held to account.
Yes, there's an enormous difference between the meaning of manifestos of parties that might get into power and of those that won't.

You've already made the point about events. And that's why I'm never too bothered if governments feel that they have to do something different from what's in the document.

There is the Salisbury Convention about second readings in the unelected chamber, but that's rarely important in the grand scale of things.

And Reform calling their manifesto a "contract" promotes the idea that these are something more than what they'd like to do if they could. It has virtually no properties of a contract.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Jdsk »

And on dog-whistling rather than policies:

"I’ve been asked absolutely no doubt that we are in decline culturally. We’ve begun to forget who we are, what our history is, what we stand for.
"We’ve put up with the minds of our children, from a young age right through university, frankly being poisoned about what this country is and what it represents."


Fortunately tomorrow doesn't belong to him.

Jonathan
djnotts
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Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: UK Politics

Post by djnotts »

^ "Fortunately tomorrow doesn't belong to him."

Sadly, I think need to add "yet" at end of that sentence.
Jdsk
Posts: 26394
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: UK Politics

Post by Jdsk »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... armer.html

Right wing on the march in EU...whilst we turn left.
And the actual outcome of the elections to the European Parliament:

Screenshot 2024-06-17 at 16.28.42.png
https://www.economist.com/europe/2024/0 ... f-the-same
(probably paywalled)

Jonathan
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al_yrpal
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Re: UK Politics

Post by al_yrpal »

........catching up albeit long after the proles. :lol: Scary times....

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: UK Politics

Post by Psamathe »

djnotts wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 4:12pm ^ "Fortunately tomorrow doesn't belong to him."

Sadly, I think need to add "yet" at end of that sentence.
He'll lose interest soon. Prime narcissism; assuming he does get elected, in the House of Commons he'll have to turn-up to have any chance of a brief occasional comment that has no impact on anybody. The world wont be talking about him, he wont be the focus of attention so he'll quickly lose interest, possibly disappearing to pastures where people will focus on him. Maybe Trump (if he gets elected) might enjoy having a court jester floating around to blame?

Ian
francovendee
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Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: UK Politics

Post by francovendee »

reohn2 wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 8:39am
francovendee wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 8:27am If Farage gets elected what does it say about the voters of Clacton?
Do you think he will though?
Yes.
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: UK Politics

Post by Psamathe »

I don't quite understand why the main parties are so against Council Tax re-banding. Seems to me a well overdue exercise and if it were done on the basis of no net increase in Council Tax (ie the total "increases" match the total "decreases") it would just be a massive outbreak of fairness.

Yet they (Labour and Conservative) leap at every opportunity to deny thet'll do it. Why? Madness.

Ian
Psamathe
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Psamathe »

francovendee wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 5:42pm
reohn2 wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 8:39am
francovendee wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 8:27am If Farage gets elected what does it say about the voters of Clacton?
Do you think he will though?
Yes.
It will be interesting if he does as, being such a contentious figure I can't see many companies wanting his name on their letterhead. He's been out of business for so long he hasn't much to offer any company

But he leads a pretty extravagant lifestyle and I doubt an MPs salary will cover his expenditure so he'll need income from other sources and don't MPs have to declare on the public record where their money from other sources comes from?

Ian
toontra
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Re: UK Politics

Post by toontra »

Psamathe wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 5:45pm I don't quite understand why the main parties are so against Council Tax re-banding. Seems to me a well overdue exercise and if it were done on the basis of no net increase in Council Tax (ie the total "increases" match the total "decreases") it would just be a massive outbreak of fairness.

Yet they (Labour and Conservative) leap at every opportunity to deny thet'll do it. Why? Madness.

Ian
Possibly because so many of them live (or have second homes whilst attending parliament) in the south east where property prices have seen the greatest gains? Turkeys voting for Christmas?
Jdsk
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Jdsk »

Tactical voting calculator:
https://www.getvoting.org/tactical-voting/

Jonathan
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