Southport, 2024

[pwa]

It was very heartening to read about good, decent local people getting together to clean up the morning after the rioters had been at work. I believe those good people are more representative of our society than the small minority scum who rioted and looted.

Sadly, when I learned that the lad who had attacked the children was the son of African immigrants I knew how that would be exploited by evil bigots, eager for an excuse to vent their constant anger. I hope they get some sense of the disgust the majority of us feel for them.

But my own initial suspicion about causation points in the direction of possible mental health issues in a lad who, let's face it, was at a stage in life where problems can bubble up and lead to actions that one regrets later in life. Why else would a 17 year old go out and do such a terrible thing?

[Jdsk]

The Prime Minister's speech:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... t-1-august
• New national coordination against violent disorder
• A warning to social media companies about criminal acts "on their premises".

Jonathan

[Tangled Metal]

Point of reference the boy was not a son of African immigrants but of African refugees. Bear in mind they were Rwandan refugees and the boy was born in Wales before moving to the Sefton area. AIUI refugees and immigrants are not necessarily considered the same thing or the same level of acceptance.

The other point I would like to make is that there was a very good newsnight sofa discussion on the Southport and other riots. I would recommend seeking it out as it had a very insightful former NF activist who is now a commentator on far right violence and activities.

He had a few cutting comments such as the fact these were all males. It is related to male toxicity he propositioned and their role in society being uncertain. Another comment made after the anchor asked him a comment about Farage and Farage's comment. He simply replied with the comment, "who do you think these people vote for?" IMHO that cuts through a lot of crap to get to the dog whistles and intent I feel lies behind opportunist Farage. He says enough to win their support but not too much that he can't row back on them. Disgusting when such things have contributed to a riot in the exact area where a trragedy like this happened. Farage is not to blame but IMHO there is certainly cause for him to consider his actions and perhaps make a public statement clarifying them and distancing himself from the politics that these guys are about. Unless he is one of them politically of course.

BTW I kind of knew the area a bit a long time ago and certainly knew a bit about Banks where the boy attacker lived, Banks. That was where my parents got their vegetables from the various farm shops. It was only about 13 before I realised potatoes didn't always come with half a field on then in big, paper sacks!! I used to hang around in Wayfarers Arcade IIRC. There was a few special interest shops in there (before you go off the wrong direction, they were philately shop and a D&D / RPG gamers shop). Southport is a lovely town, just not when the Orange Lodge is out marching!! If they still do that there these days.

[pwa]

Point of reference the boy was not a son of African immigrants but of African refugees. Bear in mind they were Rwandan refugees and the boy was born in Wales before moving to the Sefton area. AIUI refugees and immigrants are not necessarily considered the same thing or the same level of acceptance.

The other point I would like to make is that there was a very good newsnight sofa discussion on the Southport and other riots. I would recommend seeking it out as it had a very insightful former NF activist who is now a commentator on far right violence and activities.

He had a few cutting comments such as the fact these were all males. It is related to male toxicity he propositioned and their role in society being uncertain. Another comment made after the anchor asked him a comment about Farage and Farage's comment. He simply replied with the comment, "who do you think these people vote for?" IMHO that cuts through a lot of crap to get to the dog whistles and intent I feel lies behind opportunist Farage. He says enough to win their support but not too much that he can't row back on them. Disgusting when such things have contributed to a riot in the exact area where a trragedy like this happened. Farage is not to blame but IMHO there is certainly cause for him to consider his actions and perhaps make a public statement clarifying them and distancing himself from the politics that these guys are about. Unless he is one of them politically of course.

BTW I kind of knew the area a bit a long time ago and certainly knew a bit about Banks where the boy attacker lived, Banks. That was where my parents got their vegetables from the various farm shops. It was only about 13 before I realised potatoes didn't always come with half a field on then in big, paper sacks!! I used to hang around in Wayfarers Arcade IIRC. There was a few special interest shops in there (before you go off the wrong direction, they were philately shop and a D&D / RPG gamers shop). Southport is a lovely town, just not when the Orange Lodge is out marching!! If they still do that there these days.

At the time I referred to the boy's parents as "African immigrants" I had no other information to go off. Certainly nothing about them being refugees, at that point. But I'm not sure that makes much difference to the rabble who were likely to rise up and cause trouble. Nor would the fact that the boy was born in Wales. They don't think that way.

Farage had his opportunity to simply say "This rioting is a bad thing, totally unjustified and unhelpful, and nobody should be exploiting a terrible event as an excuse to terrorise the local community", and leave it at that. But he didn't. That tells me all I need to know about him.

[Jdsk]

Farage had his opportunity to simply say "This rioting is a bad thing, totally unjustified and unhelpful, and nobody should be exploiting a terrible event as an excuse to terrorise the local community", and leave it at that. But he didn't. That tells me all I need to know about him.

There's a lot of discussion about the point at which his words become incitement. As you say it's easy to get this right if he wants to.

Jonathan

[DevonDamo]

It's depressing that populist misinformation about current affairs continues to be such a successful recruiting sergeant for the far right on social media. It's important, therefore, to celebrate those occasions when social media brings us a joyful moment that we can all celebrate together.

[Nearholmer]

Russian destabilisation is something that I’m convinced is behind a lot of the sh!t too, and I’d bet money from Russia, and from the US beyond-neo-libertarians who seek to effectively destroy the concept of the state. We live in very dangerous times. Oh, and how come Facebook is allowed to continue to act as the publisher of choice of public-facing material for the far right?

[francovendee]

Farage tiptoes along the edge of what is, or is not, incitement/ approval of this type of thing. He's an opportunist always willing to exploit a situation for his own gain.
The big problem is why the media gives him so much air time to spread his nasty views.

[pwa]

Farage tiptoes along the edge of what is, or is not, incitement/ approval of this type of thing. He's an opportunist always willing to exploit a situation for his own gain.
The big problem is why the media gives him so much air time to spread his nasty views.

That is a good question, but I feel there is a balancing act to be done here. If he gets shut out from mainstream broadcasting his message will become "The stuff they don't want you to hear", and the result could be an increase in support. Especially as we now live in an age where it is easy for him to get across via other platforms. Better, I think, to let him say his piece, then counter it with other opinions. And out on the street, support for the rioters is still confined to a very small minority. The UK is not rioting. A few hundred thugs are rioting, with the rest of us feeling nothing but disgust for them. The majority are more represented by the volunteers who show up the morning after, armed with shovels and brushes to clean up.

[Psamathe]

I can't understand why these rioters are being continually referred to as "Far Right". What they are doing seems to have nothing to do with politics, no aims to persuade change in any political policy. From a political perspective it's totally counter productive, alienating the perpetrator's views making the change they might seek less likely.

So to me it has nothing to do with politics so why the "Far Right". At best they are a small subset of "Far Right". Why not refer to them as "Monster Truck Enthusiasts" or "WWF Fans" (where they would also be a small subset of those groups, most of whom pursue their interest peacefully).

ie Why keep using a political label when their actions have nothing to do with politics.

Ian

[Jdsk]

I can't understand why these rioters are being continually referred to as "Far Right". What they are doing seems to have nothing to do with politics, no aims to persuade change in any political policy. From a political perspective it's totally counter productive, alienating the perpetrator's views making the change they might seek less likely.

So to me it has nothing to do with politics so why the "Far Right". At best they are a small subset of "Far Right". Why not refer to them as "Monster Truck Enthusiasts" or "WWF Fans" (where they would also be a small subset of those groups, most of whom pursue their interest peacefully).

ie Why keep using a political label when their actions have nothing to do with politics.

"The Far Right and the Southport Riot: What We Know So Far":
https://hopenothate.org.uk/2024/07/31/t ... ow-so-far/

Jonathan

[Cugel]

I can't understand why these rioters are being continually referred to as "Far Right". What they are doing seems to have nothing to do with politics, no aims to persuade change in any political policy. From a political perspective it's totally counter productive, alienating the perpetrator's views making the change they might seek less likely.

So to me it has nothing to do with politics so why the "Far Right". At best they are a small subset of "Far Right". Why not refer to them as "Monster Truck Enthusiasts" or "WWF Fans" (where they would also be a small subset of those groups, most of whom pursue their interest peacefully).

ie Why keep using a political label when their actions have nothing to do with politics.

Ian

"Politics" is an elastic concept. Basically its the activities of humans for arranging relationships with each other in order to allow the pursuit of different and often competing interests or wants. It isn't a set of particular political institutions or ideologies - those are just particular implementations of the basic activity of dickering-up socio-economic relationships with other humans.

The rioters are far-right in the current argot because they evince a politics of exclusion, intolerance and authoritarian governance rather than a politics of tolerance + rule of law. Personally I feel that this old British Parliamentary terminology of left & right (from which side of the commons, Whig or Tory, politicians used to sit in Parliament) is a very crude nomenclature. Politics has many more dimensions than two.

The reference to these rioters as "protestors" also seems a misnomer. "Protesting" like a spoilt and unpleasant toddler, about nothing more than wanting to have a scream and kick at something-anything, is hardly a political protest. One gets the impression that they would be just doing football hooligan or Saturday night fighting but these are not so fashionable as they once were so Tommy-rotting about something-something dark skinned people will do.

The mass media love such antics, though. In fact they're tiny local disturbances by a few yobs following the latest yob-fashion. But newspaps know that such antics excite the angsts - but more importantly the attentions - of we hoi-polloi so they make them a prominent "item". I'd rather hear about the machinations of those powerful humans who drastically affect the lives of every citizen, such as various business people, politicians and their various plots, cabals and real intents.

Those yobbos and their would-be organisers don't deserve the amount of attention they get from the public at large. They only need the attention of the police and the courts, like other petty criminals. Of course Farago, Tommy Rotterscum and similar will be anxious to recruit them for their future brown and blackshirts. Why are the mass media, particularly the anti-social mass media such as Twitterer and Faecespuke, allowed to aid and implement this recruitment?

[pete75]

Populist right wing demagogue with his supporters blaming Muslims for our problems and attacking mosques. Saw this online. Remind you of anything?

[pwa]

I can't understand why these rioters are being continually referred to as "Far Right". What they are doing seems to have nothing to do with politics, no aims to persuade change in any political policy. From a political perspective it's totally counter productive, alienating the perpetrator's views making the change they might seek less likely.

So to me it has nothing to do with politics so why the "Far Right". At best they are a small subset of "Far Right". Why not refer to them as "Monster Truck Enthusiasts" or "WWF Fans" (where they would also be a small subset of those groups, most of whom pursue their interest peacefully).

ie Why keep using a political label when their actions have nothing to do with politics.

Ian

I kind of agree. This Right/Left way of seeing things doesn't explain everything. They are bigots who know only what and who they hate, but don't have a collective view on other matters.

[Nearholmer]

What they are doing seems to have nothing to do with politics

It has a huge amount to do with politics.

They are the deniable shock troops of the political neo-libertarian, anti-state, far right, as are for instance the Proud Boys in the USA. If the politicos secure power, these shock troops will be used for as long as they can be directed into targets, then eliminated the moment they become a threat to the politicos. See for instance “Night of the Long Knives”.