Southport, 2024

[Jdsk]

Charges appearing.

Sentencing guidelines for violent disorder:
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/of ... isorder-2/

Jonathan

[Tangled Metal]

I used to live near Blackburn when there was a riot in the asian sections of the town. I recall it ended up with young asian lads throwing stuff at the police lines but in that case the true reason was a falling out between two families of Pakistan and Bangladeshi origins. It started over a disagreement between the two families and spread out such that the asian youths got involved without knowing why just that they wanted to trash stuff and throw bricks at the police lines.

i think this is situation is that thugs want to have their violence and latch on to something to give them a feeling of legitimacy in their violence. If people want to call them far right so be it they are more likely to just be white, working class males. Of this the males part is most relevant IMHO. You rarely see women in the same financial position as those men rioting with them. Surely if it was purely socioeconomic cause you would get women with the men??? Do women not feel the financial pressures too? Or is it something to do with male levels of testosterone? I reckon with the police actions against the football hooligans the hooligans have just swtiched to so called politcial, far right thuggery. I do not believe that I think it is just white, male thugs doing what white, male thugs like to do most!!

[Nearholmer]

I honestly think there’s a bit of naivety being shown in some of the discussion, in that these are very clearly something more than spontaneous/copycat outbreaks of thuggery, which sets them apart from previous “riot seasons” as someone above called them.

This time round we have:

- foreign destabilisation at play in a significant way;

- a tier-one whipper-up at work in the form of Yaxley-Lennon, and goodness only knows who is funding and coaching him;

- a weasely demagogue-in-waiting in the form of Farage, who leads the next tier of activity, which coalesces the support of apologists and fellow-travellers, and again goodness only knows who is funding and coaching his nest of vipers;

- 1:7 of the population having only recently shown their willingness to support an immigration (and by direct connection race) obsessed party, so 1:7 of the population who range in opinion from out-and-out racists who will quietly condone the violence, to those who aren’t quite racist, but who are very definitely fellow-travellers who won’t condemn all this, and may see it as the inevitable product of something they are phobic about (immigration).

So, yes, it’s true to say that a certain sort of men are prone to this behaviour, that wild outbreaks of thuggery are to some extent wired-into maleness, and that poverty creates a seedbed (although travelling mobs from a footy-fan background generally aren’t financially poor at all), that isn’t the “big story”; the “big story” is how the “headcases” are being used like puppets.

This is not spontaneous; it is timed to cause the new labour government a load of distracting hassle in its first 100 days.

[francovendee]

Nicely put Nearholmer, I can't disagree with any of that. How to combat this seems impossible given the ease of false rumour spreading and the speed with which it's done.
As we've heard the prisons are full do you think some have been emboldened into thinking If I get arrested I'll just get a fine?

[Jdsk]

...
How to combat this seems impossible given the ease of false rumour spreading and the speed with which it's done.
...

It's possible. And something similar was achieved with violence related to football. The Prime Minister has included addressing the communications which lead to criminal activity.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

...
As we've heard the prisons are full do you think some have been emboldened into thinking If I get arrested I'll just get a fine?

The state of the criminal justice system and the prisons is a disgrace. But AFAIK sentences have much less deterrent effect than perceived chance of detection. And I have no idea of what that was for these thugs.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

I honestly think there’s a bit of naivety being shown in some of the discussion, in that these are very clearly something more than spontaneous/copycat outbreaks of thuggery, which sets them apart from previous “riot seasons” as someone above called them.

This time round we have:

- foreign destabilisation at play in a significant way;

- a tier-one whipper-up at work in the form of Yaxley-Lennon, and goodness only knows who is funding and coaching him;

- a weasely demagogue-in-waiting in the form of Farage, who leads the next tier of activity, which coalesces the support of apologists and fellow-travellers, and again goodness only knows who is funding and coaching his nest of vipers;

- 1:7 of the population having only recently shown their willingness to support an immigration (and by direct connection race) obsessed party, so 1:7 of the population who range in opinion from out-and-out racists who will quietly condone the violence, to those who aren’t quite racist, but who are very definitely fellow-travellers who won’t condemn all this, and may see it as the inevitable product of something they are phobic about (immigration).

So, yes, it’s true to say that a certain sort of men are prone to this behaviour, that wild outbreaks of thuggery are to some extent wired-into maleness, and that poverty creates a seedbed (although travelling mobs from a footy-fan background generally aren’t financially poor at all), that isn’t the “big story”; the “big story” is how the “headcases” are being used like puppets.

This is not spontaneous; it is timed to cause the new labour government a load of distracting hassle in its first 100 days.

That's a very good description of some of the many causes. Thankyou.

But on the first paragraph: I can't tell whether it's naivety or something else.

And on the last: I haven't seen any evidence for that yet. I do wonder if the connection to the election is about "no-one listened".

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Sara Khan was "Rishi Sunak’s independent adviser for social cohesion and resilience until May this year and acted as counter-extremism commissioner under Theresa May and Boris Johnson".

Her thoughts on what previous governments should and shouldn't have done:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/art ... er-adviser

Jonathan

[Psamathe]

Charges appearing.

Sentencing guidelines for violent disorder:
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/of ... isorder-2/

Jonathan

With Climate Protestors receiving 5 year and 4 year sentences for "conspiring to block traffic on the M25" seems that such violent rioting having a maximum sentence of 5 years is a bit out of balance.

But what about the (new) offence of attacking an emergency worker - max 2 years custody? (https://www.jdspicer.co.uk/site/blog/cr ... sentencing). If found guiulty of "Assault occasioning actual bodily harm" then 5 years.

So worse possible max sentence only matches that handed to a climate protestor - and that Climate Protestor didn't actually do anything, just conspired to do something (compared with putting Police Officers in hospital).

If those max. sentences for rioters I found are actually the case I can see a public outcry when they get sentenced.

But I'm no legal expert so may easily have missed possible chargeable offences, sentencing exceptions, etc.

Ian

[mattheus]

Farage tiptoes along the edge of what is, or is not, incitement/ approval of this type of thing. He's an opportunist always willing to exploit a situation for his own gain.
The big problem is why the media gives him so much air time to spread his nasty views.

That is a good question, but I feel there is a balancing act to be done here. If he gets shut out from mainstream broadcasting his message will become "The stuff they don't want you to hear", and the result could be an increase in support. Especially as we now live in an age where it is easy for him to get across via other platforms. Better, I think, to let him say his piece, then counter it with other opinions.
<snip...>

Good points. But I note that Reuters - who surely have reputation higher than most news channels - managed to report on this without promoting Farage's hate speech:

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/clashe ... 024-07-31/

[Nearholmer]

And on the last: I haven't seen any evidence for that yet. I do wonder if the connection to the election is about "no-one listened".

There has been a rising drumbeat for this for some months, with vast amounts of stuff on facebook etc from VPN’ed foreign accounts, a rally in Westminster about six weeks ago, yet more drumbeating, Yaxley-Lennon over last weekend for mass rally to whip the troops up into a frenzy, then as soon as a potential trigger-event happened (and one was bound to occur from some cause or another, because things happen) a deliberate load of rumours about the religion of the perpetrator was fired-out on all channels. It’s orchestrated.

I wish I’d snapshotted some of the Facebook postings to show to people here - such blatant incitement to violence against Muslim people that they would remove any doubt that this is cleverly puppeteered. They seem to have stopped in the past 24hrs, for the first time in absolutely ages, so I wonder whether the security services have at last got on top of it, or persuaded Facebook to do what it should have done weeks or months ago.

[Biospace]

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/clashe ... 024-07-31/

I'd noticed this also, it was good to see. It shouldn't be necessary to mention him in relation to these riots.

There has been a rising drumbeat for this for some months, with vast amounts of stuff on facebook etc.
...
I wish I’d snapshotted some of the Facebook postings to show to people here - such blatant incitement to violence against Muslim people that they would remove any doubt that this is cleverly puppeteered. They seem to have stopped in the past 24hrs, for the first time in absolutely ages, so I wonder whether the security services have at last got on top of it, or persuaded Facebook to do what it should have done weeks or months ago.

Why has Facebook allowed this to continue for so long?

[Nearholmer]

Very good question, isn’t it?

Their “free speech” policy seems to encompass a whole lot of “dog whistling”, where the posting is very clearly intended to provoke a particular reaction, but not blatant, and then the comments below, many of which I’m sure are bot-generated “starters for ten”, take up the call and become blatantly racist, Islamophobic, threatening etc. But, at the tail end of last week whoever is posting this stuff upped the ante, posting images that overtly invited violence against Muslims.

The stuff swirling around the US election campaign is similar, a combo action of dog-whistling, provocation/taunting, overt racism, bonkers conspiracy theory stuff, etc, and Facebook appears fully content to act as a publisher of it all.

Now, Facebook and similar are public-facing, so not useful to groups planning disorder in detail (encrypted messaging works for that), but the are ideal tools for whipping-up hatred, tapping generalised discontent and turning it in particular directions, calls to public rallies etc.

Can one control that, without killing legitimate free speech? Tough one. But, I’m pretty sure that a lot of what Facebook publish (I’m deliberately choosing that word) would fall foul of the law if on a licensed broadcast medium, or in print.

The only positive I can see from it is that a lot of it is so public that the police and security services must have zero trouble predicting what will kick-off where and when, and identifying participants!

[Jdsk]

Charges appearing.

Sentencing guidelines for violent disorder:
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/of ... isorder-2/

With Climate Protestors receiving 5 year and 4 year sentences for "conspiring to block traffic on the M25" seems that such violent rioting having a maximum sentence of 5 years is a bit out of balance.

But what about the (new) offence of attacking an emergency worker - max 2 years custody? (https://www.jdspicer.co.uk/site/blog/cr ... sentencing). If found guiulty of "Assault occasioning actual bodily harm" then 5 years.

So worse possible max sentence only matches that handed to a climate protestor - and that Climate Protestor didn't actually do anything, just conspired to do something (compared with putting Police Officers in hospital).

If those max. sentences for rioters I found are actually the case I can see a public outcry when they get sentenced.

But I'm no legal expert so may easily have missed possible chargeable offences, sentencing exceptions, etc.

I was never convinced of the need for that new offence: it always looked a bit performative.

But it's there now. And there's no shortage of available offences for the prosecutors to use.

I chose violent offence, because that was the first charge that I saw reported. Suspects in Liverpool have now also been charged with assault on an emergency worker and with burglary.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Charges appearing.

Sentencing guidelines for violent disorder:
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/of ... isorder-2/

David Allen Green today:
"How the criminal justice system deals with a riot":
https://davidallengreen.com

Jonathan