Repairability and economic lifespan

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francovendee
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by francovendee »

I wonder how companies who manage to make a product that lasts and lasts make their business model work?
Buying once and it lasting for 30 years seems a workable business model only if you have an endless stream of new customers.
With a limited market, saturation point would soon be reached.
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Cugel
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by Cugel »

francovendee wrote: 2 Aug 2024, 8:56am I wonder how companies who manage to make a product that lasts and lasts make their business model work?
Buying once and it lasting for 30 years seems a workable business model only if you have an endless stream of new customers.
With a limited market, saturation point would soon be reached.
Several possible strategies seem possible in addition to the rabid fashion-cycle + planned obsolescence mode ......

Make things of high and lasting quality but sell them at the small rate dictated by an increase in a slowly-growing good reputation spreading through the market + a high price point which delays but doesn't stop a purchase as customers save up for one.

Innovate genuinely to improve the product in meaningful ways that don't make the older model redundant but do offer improvements for those that want them. Of course, this may create a bigger second-hand market for the older model but perhaps that eventually increases the overall customer base.

Nothing lasts forever so create a market for high quality spare parts and perhaps also a servicing division.

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Such manufacturing & selling approaches have existed successfully for decades and even centuries. There are still companies that make tools like this, for example. However, the post-modern markets have factors that can destroy such approaches, as customers in increasing numbers fall for the fashion cycles, cheap & cheerful (cheap and break after 5 minutes use) and other degrading practices of modern manufacturers.

However, the adage, "You get what you pay for" can still apply. Sadly, many seem happy to pay a fortune for nothing more than a fashionable label, these days. Its a vicious cycle, as manufacturers notice the ease and profits of selling fashion rather than utility. Standards drop; profits increase; customers cry (or, if daft enough, starve and freeze so they can have the latest i-Pointless device).
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al_yrpal
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by al_yrpal »

From what I know from my engineering background manufacturers design and manufacture to a target time that items will last 10% failing in that time. Anyone familiar with specifying ball bearings will know that selection is based on the same kind of principle.
Hair dryers say 100 hours, electric toothbrushes 40 hours etc etc.

As anyone who has repaired their own washing machine, dishwasher etc will have discovered is that there are plenty of spares available through third parties online.

Back in the 70s and before lots of us did our own car maintenance brakes, steering, engine rebuilds etc. cars were simple and easy to repair.

As for bikes, they are simple arent they, no trouble at all....

Al
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briansnail
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by briansnail »

As for bikes, they are simple arent they, no trouble at all....
I want to buy a brand new bike but a 5 speed (I do not need 30 gears thanks very much).I want V or caliber brakes as disc brakes were a pain to maintain.Just cannot find one.
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Biospace
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by Biospace »

al_yrpal wrote: 2 Aug 2024, 2:28pm From what I know from my engineering background manufacturers design and manufacture to a target time that items will last 10% failing in that time. Anyone familiar with specifying ball bearings will know that selection is based on the same kind of principle.
Hair dryers say 100 hours, electric toothbrushes 40 hours etc etc.

As anyone who has repaired their own washing machine, dishwasher etc will have discovered is that there are plenty of spares available through third parties online.

Back in the 70s and before lots of us did our own car maintenance brakes, steering, engine rebuilds etc. cars were simple and easy to repair.

As for bikes, they are simple arent they, no trouble at all....

Al
I really miss being able to buy high quality items made from the best components and materials which are not so complex they make repairs by someone without a box full of special tools (specific to various components) and laptop of the correct software all but impossible.

As I mentioned, our AEG washing machine was scrapped recently because the £10 drum bearing couldn't (officially) be replaced, it seems this is the case for many. I didn't wish to spend Miele money (then be trapped in their ££££ repair service as and when it needed it) and having researched a little, it seems some of cheapest models compare well with those approaching £1000.

A click online followed two days later by delivery from Currys cost £100, it was a "refurbished" model described as "badly scratched" (it wasn't) and came with 12 months' warranty. We were told it was a shop return, opened up and checked for faults by an English engineer, where nothing wrong was found. We'll see what happens, but four weeks in, it still works quietly and uses no more energy than the old one.
axel_knutt
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by axel_knutt »

francovendee wrote: 1 Aug 2024, 3:43pm how do you stop the juggernaut that is capitalism?
By finding an alternative to consumer goods as a means of competing for status.
francovendee wrote: 2 Aug 2024, 8:56am I wonder how companies who manage to make a product that lasts and lasts make their business model work?
By making the working product obsolete, so that people throw it away because it's out of fashion instead, or by locking the customer into a very expensive maintenance regime, or by including some form of ongoing payment like a subscription.
Cugel wrote: 2 Aug 2024, 11:07am Make things of high and lasting quality but sell them at the small rate dictated by an increase in a slowly-growing good reputation spreading through the market + a high price point which delays but doesn't stop a purchase as customers save up for one.
This fails to address the root cause of the problem: status competition. There is status to be had in being able to afford waste. Consumerism is the modern day equivalent of the Kwakiutl potlatch.
Cugel wrote: 2 Aug 2024, 11:07am Such manufacturing & selling approaches have existed successfully for decades and even centuries.
Because people couldn't afford any different. We are now in an era where for the first time in history the majority of the population have wealth far in excess of what they actually need.
Biospace wrote: 4 Aug 2024, 11:48am I really miss being able to buy high quality items made from the best components and materials which are not so complex they make repairs by someone without a box full of special tools (specific to various components) and laptop of the correct software all but impossible.
If people have the money to buy a car that will reverse itself into a parking space instead of having to do it themselves, they'll demonstrate that to their peer group by buying one. Never mind that they can't repair it, because that's another opportunity to demonstrate they have the money to pay someone else to fix it, just as long as it doesn't embarrass them by going wrong whilst they're showing it off to their mates. Once everyone has the money to buy one, the cars that won't park themselves go out of production because few are going to make themselves look like losers by buying yesterday's technology.
Biospace wrote: 4 Aug 2024, 11:48am As I mentioned, our AEG washing machine was scrapped recently because the £10 drum bearing couldn't (officially) be replaced, it seems this is the case for many. I didn't wish to spend Miele money (then be trapped in their ££££ repair service as and when it needed it) and having researched a little, it seems some of cheapest models compare well with those approaching £1000.
I've used Maytag commercial machines that are used by businesses, and what strikes me is that they have just two or three programs on them instead of the 10-20 that consumer machines have. Businesses aren't susceptible to the same marketing gimmicks that the public are, they want what's reliable and economical to run over the long term.

For anyone who's genuinely interested in the subject, let me recommend a reading list:

Miller, Spent
Professor of evolutionary psychology analyses how and why status competition evolved, and discusses some more constructive ways of competing for status.

Veblen, Conspicuous Consumption.
An analysis of how people compete for status by consumption.

Marmot, Status Syndrome
Epidemiology professor's analysis of the health effects of status.

Schwartz, The Paradox of Choice
Psychology professor on how and why excessive choice can cause mental illness.

Smail, Why Therapy Doesn't Work
Clinical psychologist on what brings true happiness, and why it isn't therapy.

Wilkinson & Pickett, Spirit Level
Epidemiology professors' analysis of the effect of excessive wealth inequality on society.

Frank, Luxury Fever
An economics professor's recommendations for economic policies to counter consumerism.

The problem with consumerism as a means of competing for status is that it's a zero sum game: the Smiths can't have more than the Jones' at the same time as the Jones' having more than the Smiths, so it just becomes a self destructive vicious cycle of escalation, and environmental damage.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
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Biospace
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by Biospace »

axel_knutt wrote: 4 Aug 2024, 1:55pm ...
I've used Maytag commercial machines that are used by businesses, and what strikes me is that they have just two or three programs on them instead of the 10-20 that consumer machines have. Businesses aren't susceptible to the same marketing gimmicks that the public are, they want what's reliable and economical to run over the long term.

For anyone who's genuinely interested in the subject, let me recommend a reading list:
...
The problem with consumerism as a means of competing for status is that it's a zero sum game: the Smiths can't have more than the Jones' at the same time as the Jones' having more than the Smiths, so it just becomes a self destructive vicious cycle of escalation, and environmental damage.
Very true, there are huge freedoms realised not being trapped with consumer disease. Those look to be very interesting links, thanks.

A semi-commercial application washing machine was considered, various factors got in the way.

In a spare hour I had earlier today I took apart a phone for the first time, to replace the £7 battery. The cost of having this done is close to the value of the phone, so many are rendered junk by their owners despite working perfectly.

I didn't risk dismantling my more modern iPhone, instead there were only around ten tiny screws and five or six tiny, fiddly connectors on this older model - still more than enough, entry via the screen unlike the delightful old 4S model, sadly recently disabled from FaceTime.

Likely little will ever come of this, https://forums.appleinsider.com/discuss ... -easier/p1

iphone se access.jpg
iphone 1st SE screen removal.jpg
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ANTONISH
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by ANTONISH »

briansnail wrote: 2 Aug 2024, 3:50pm
As for bikes, they are simple arent they, no trouble at all....
I want to buy a brand new bike but a 5 speed (I do not need 30 gears thanks very much).I want V or caliber brakes as disc brakes were a pain to maintain.Just cannot find one.
***********************
I ride Brompton,Hetchins 531
I usually obtain a frame and build it to the specification I want.
I'm not surprised that you can't purchase the complete machine you describe - there would be too few takers to make it economic to build and stock such a bike.
5sp derailleur blocks are pretty well obsolete and you are unlikely to find a new good quality one.
You could probably source a 5sp hub gear and start from there - OTOH 7sp is available but usually not great quality.
I started in the fifties with a 3sp derailleur - did some long rides on that but these days my aged legs prefer the range of my 27/30 sp setups.
briansnail
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by briansnail »

I just bought a Casio watch for £10 and binned the old identical one.Reason quote for a new battery fit £13 - £20.
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Biospace
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by Biospace »

briansnail wrote: 7 Aug 2024, 4:28pm I just bought a Casio watch...
I've an electric shaver bought for holidays, awkward to take apart to replace the built-in rechargeable battery which failed, but did so. Not yet back together :roll: so I simply wet shave when away, or don't (especially when camping).
axel_knutt
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by axel_knutt »

Biospace wrote: 4 Aug 2024, 3:23pm In a spare hour I had earlier today I took apart a phone for the first time, to replace the £7 battery.
Is that for a kosher manufacturers one, or a cheapie of unknown provenance off Amazon?
briansnail wrote: 7 Aug 2024, 4:28pm I just bought a Casio watch for £10 and binned the old identical one.Reason quote for a new battery fit £13 - £20.
***********************************
I ride Brompton,Hetchins 531
As I said above, manufacturing costs go down as the economy grows, but labour costs go up, so progressively more and more products become uneconomical to repair.

I used to pay jewellers to change the battery in my watch, mainly because I didn't have a key to unscrew the back. Then one day it stopped just after I had a new battery fitted, I took it back, they put another in, and that stopped, so I took it back again.

"It stopped because the battery holder's damaged"
"If it is it's because you damaged it"
"Er, well, no, not damaged, worn"

So I made my own key and took the back off, and it turned out that they'd just bent the battery clip to one side to get the battery in and out because they couldn't be bothered unscrewing it.

There are two types of tradesmen: those who don't do the job properly, and those who would do the job properly if they didn't have to compete with the others.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
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Biospace
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by Biospace »

axel_knutt wrote: 9 Aug 2024, 9:37am
Biospace wrote: 4 Aug 2024, 3:23pm In a spare hour I had earlier today I took apart a phone for the first time, to replace the £7 battery.
Is that for a kosher manufacturers one, or a cheapie of unknown provenance off Amazon?
The battery is a "Genuine Original Ohyesit", stated to be an Apple supplier, I've no idea if it'll be any good. Time will tell, but do you have any recommendations? I've not yet stuck it in place, so it's easily removeable if needs be.

For my more modern iPhone, I'd probably take it to Apple for a replacement, but its battery has only deteriorated by 1% in 2 years use.

The quality of replacement parts for old equipment is often what renders its daily use marginal.
axel_knutt
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by axel_knutt »

Biospace wrote: 9 Aug 2024, 6:33pmdo you have any recommendations?
Not really, when I bought replacement batteries for my Samsung laptop I asked Samsung for a supplier, and they cost >£90 compared to ~£16 for an Amazon cheapie.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Cowsham
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by Cowsham »

I know of a clock in a town nearby that's been running continuously 24/7 from about 1771 more or less ( apart from short periods of restoration to the building it's in )

There's another in Castle Rushen in Castletown on the isle of man which has been running since it was presented by Queen Elizabeth 1 in 1597.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi ... 455204.jpg
I am here. Where are you?
Mike Sales
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Re: Repairability and economic lifespan

Post by Mike Sales »

Cowsham wrote: 10 Aug 2024, 6:47pm
There's another in Castle Rushen in Castletown on the isle of man which has been running since it was presented by Queen Elizabeth 1 in 1597.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi ... 455204.jpg
Have you visited Castletown's Nautical Museum? I strongly recommend it.

https://manxnationalheritage.im/our-sit ... al-museum/
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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