I wouldn't consider using surplus electrical energy in district heating to be storage. It's a good idea, but I would think that a storage system would allow the stored energy to be returned to the grid when needed.Biospace wrote: ↑1 Oct 2024, 5:04pmPlease make it clear what you're struggling with. Copenhagen (population 1.39 million) presently has a capacity of around 8 GWh in its district heating storage. To place this in some context, Britain presently has around 34 GWh of capacity with its pumped storage systems such as Dinorwig and around 4 GWh of battery storage.
UK energy
Re: UK energy
Re: UK energy
Yes, sensible heat. An engineer friend based in Copenhagen is the source for 8 GWh of water heat storage for Copenhagen district alone, he describes a system in a state of fairly rapid change with large expansions of storage expected to come on line over the next couple of decades.roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑1 Oct 2024, 5:56pmThanks. Quantification helps enormously.Biospace wrote: ↑1 Oct 2024, 5:04pmPlease make it clear what you're struggling with. Copenhagen (population 1.39 million) presently has a capacity of around 8 GWh in its district heating storage. To place this in some context, Britain presently has around 34 GWh of capacity with its pumped storage systems such as Dinorwig and around 4 GWh of battery storage.
What's the source for the 8Gwh figure?
And what's the method of storage? This is sensible heat in water, right?
Looking for myself, I see the main heat storage for Copenhagen is Vestforbrænding (20000 m3), Amager (48000 m3) and Høje Taastrup https://www.veks.dk/en/-/media/veks/fil ... _folder-uk (70000 m3). This industry tends to use ΔT as 40C, which for 138,000 m3 gives around 6.5 GWh storage capacity, using 50C gives around 8 GWh. I believe there are other, smaller storage capacity plants.
It's a valid point that excess electricity stored as heat in water cannot economically be turned back into electricity, but if it satisfies space heating demand then it makes better economic sense to store the energy as hot water, providing losses are minimised.
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Re: UK energy
Very interesting.Biospace wrote: ↑2 Oct 2024, 2:36pmYes, sensible heat. An engineer friend based in Copenhagen is the source for 8 GWh of water heat storage for Copenhagen district alone, he describes a system in a state of fairly rapid change with large expansions of storage expected to come on line over the next couple of decades.roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑1 Oct 2024, 5:56pmThanks. Quantification helps enormously.Biospace wrote: ↑1 Oct 2024, 5:04pm
Please make it clear what you're struggling with. Copenhagen (population 1.39 million) presently has a capacity of around 8 GWh in its district heating storage. To place this in some context, Britain presently has around 34 GWh of capacity with its pumped storage systems such as Dinorwig and around 4 GWh of battery storage.
What's the source for the 8Gwh figure?
And what's the method of storage? This is sensible heat in water, right?
Looking for myself, I see the main heat storage for Copenhagen is Vestforbrænding (20000 m3), Amager (48000 m3) and Høje Taastrup https://www.veks.dk/en/-/media/veks/fil ... _folder-uk (70000 m3). This industry tends to use ΔT as 40C, which for 138,000 m3 gives around 6.5 GWh storage capacity, using 50C gives around 8 GWh. I believe there are other, smaller storage capacity plants.
It's a valid point that excess electricity stored as heat in water cannot economically be turned back into electricity, but if it satisfies space heating demand then it makes better economic sense to store the energy as hot water, providing losses are minimised.
I'd not come across this before.
It appears that there is very little application outside Denmark. Within Denmark, it's even used for seasonal (!) storage, heated up in summer for use in winter, in some municipalities.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2X23026476
The Dutch do something similar with aquifers, according to that paper, though in smaller capacity.
I'm not sure how much this sort of low intensity (if that is the right word) storage has relevance outside of the context of space heating.
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Re: UK energy
Is this a hack? if someone is legitimately using the "the snail " ok fine no problem but I know there is a bit of spamming and rogue AI bots on forums.If there is another snail at large?.We will share some mice lettuce.Sorry nice lettuce.the snail wrote: ↑
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Re: UK energy
Don't worry Dylan, it's all above boardermintrude wrote: ↑3 Oct 2024, 3:31pmIs this a hack? if someone is legitimately using the "the snail " ok fine no problem but I know there is a bit of spamming and rogue AI bots on forums.If there is another snail at large?.We will share some mice lettuce.Sorry nice lettuce.the snail wrote: ↑
Re: UK energy
Space heating and hot water accounts for more energy than that supplied by our electricity Grid, it's around one quarter of our total energy consumption (https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... he-uk-2023).roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑2 Oct 2024, 6:18pm Very interesting.
I'd not come across this before.
It appears that there is very little application outside Denmark. Within Denmark, it's even used for seasonal (!) storage, heated up in summer for use in winter, in some municipalities.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2X23026476
The Dutch do something similar with aquifers, according to that paper, though in smaller capacity.
I'm not sure how much this sort of low intensity (if that is the right word) storage has relevance outside of the context of space heating.
Denmark's district heating systems are reported to require 30% to 40% less energy than if buildings/flats are heated individually, which even without the use of renewable energy, heat pumps and waste heat makes for a considerable reduction in carbon emissions and pollution.
It's a new approach which the Danes appear to be pioneering, the Germans and Swedes are studying its possibilities and China has a solar thermal powered one in Tibet, https://solarthermalworld.org/news/sdh- ... d-success/
- simonineaston
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Re: UK energy
I know this has been said before & I read too that Labour have committed to improve the situation, but I can't stop myself from whinging about it again...
* it isn't a market - electric current is electric current
* smart meters under many circs, weren't and remain so
* the regulator is a pointless sham
* the capping scam is just a cover for putting up prices.
What a flippin' dog's dinner!
* it isn't a market - electric current is electric current
* smart meters under many circs, weren't and remain so
* the regulator is a pointless sham
* the capping scam is just a cover for putting up prices.
What a flippin' dog's dinner!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Re: UK energy
The problem is how gas prices dictate the price we pay for our energy, even if the electricity is mostly from better value, less harmful sources - wind and solar. It'd be interesting to conduct a study in which households could buy their energy, real time, from their preferred source.simonineaston wrote: ↑3 Oct 2024, 5:40pm ...
* the capping scam is just a cover for putting up prices.
What a flippin' dog's dinner!
https://www.ft.com/content/cfb4ebfa-e45 ... 986cbf0781
- simonineaston
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Re: UK energy
Rather!
oh and I forgot to moan about the cynical and bare-faced way in which nearly every supplier has hiked their standing costs, at the exact same time most sensible folk have been trying their best to reduce their consumption.
oh and I forgot to moan about the cynical and bare-faced way in which nearly every supplier has hiked their standing costs, at the exact same time most sensible folk have been trying their best to reduce their consumption.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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Re: UK energy
A new Danish system under construction at Esbjerg integrates waste incineration, sea water heat pump, woodchip burner, gas boiler, district heating, grid load balancing, and 3.5GWh of heat storage. There's another under construction three times the size.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Re: UK energy
Again - it's not the suppliers which do this, it's the regulator.simonineaston wrote: ↑3 Oct 2024, 6:20pm Rather!
oh and I forgot to moan about the cynical and bare-faced way in which nearly every supplier has hiked their standing costs, at the exact same time most sensible folk have been trying their best to reduce their consumption.
Suppliers can charge slightly less than the regulator allows, but not much here - the network costs need to be passed on.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
- simonineaston
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Re: UK energy
to be honest, I don't care who does it, the effects the same!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Re: UK energy
Hey, I wuz yer first! I'm sure we can share the lettuce amicably thobriansnail wrote: ↑3 Oct 2024, 3:31pmIs this a hack? if someone is legitimately using the "the snail " ok fine no problem but I know there is a bit of spamming and rogue AI bots on forums.If there is another snail at large?.We will share some mice lettuce.Sorry nice lettuce.the snail wrote: ↑
Re: UK energy
<leaves out lettuce for the snails>
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Re: UK energy
A great example of Danish pragmatism, building what they need - low carbon heating using existing infrastructure at affordable prices. Not only does the system supply hot water directly into your home, it can provide cooling in summer.axel_knutt wrote: ↑3 Oct 2024, 6:49pm A new Danish system under construction at Esbjerg integrates waste incineration, sea water heat pump, woodchip burner, gas boiler, district heating, grid load balancing, and 3.5GWh of heat storage. There's another under construction three times the size.
It's not only Denmark, Sweden has over 1.5GW of heat pumps connected to its district heating systems which they began installing from the 1970s to use cheap rate electricity. The contrast with the UK's approach to energy supply is stark - connected to the Grid, UK energy consumers are at the mercy of volatile world spot prices after which we'll be tied to paying high prices to the French for decades.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65321487