UK energy

[the snail]

Still struggling.

Please make it clear what you're struggling with. Copenhagen (population 1.39 million) presently has a capacity of around 8 GWh in its district heating storage. To place this in some context, Britain presently has around 34 GWh of capacity with its pumped storage systems such as Dinorwig and around 4 GWh of battery storage.

I wouldn't consider using surplus electrical energy in district heating to be storage. It's a good idea, but I would think that a storage system would allow the stored energy to be returned to the grid when needed.

[Biospace]

Still struggling.

Please make it clear what you're struggling with. Copenhagen (population 1.39 million) presently has a capacity of around 8 GWh in its district heating storage. To place this in some context, Britain presently has around 34 GWh of capacity with its pumped storage systems such as Dinorwig and around 4 GWh of battery storage.

Thanks. Quantification helps enormously.

What's the source for the 8Gwh figure?

And what's the method of storage? This is sensible heat in water, right?

Yes, sensible heat. An engineer friend based in Copenhagen is the source for 8 GWh of water heat storage for Copenhagen district alone, he describes a system in a state of fairly rapid change with large expansions of storage expected to come on line over the next couple of decades.

Looking for myself, I see the main heat storage for Copenhagen is Vestforbrænding (20000 m3), Amager (48000 m3) and Høje Taastrup https://www.veks.dk/en/-/media/veks/fil ... _folder-uk (70000 m3). This industry tends to use ΔT as 40C, which for 138,000 m3 gives around 6.5 GWh storage capacity, using 50C gives around 8 GWh. I believe there are other, smaller storage capacity plants.

I wouldn't consider using surplus electrical energy in district heating to be storage. It's a good idea, but I would think that a storage system would allow the stored energy to be returned to the grid when needed.

It's a valid point that excess electricity stored as heat in water cannot economically be turned back into electricity, but if it satisfies space heating demand then it makes better economic sense to store the energy as hot water, providing losses are minimised.

[roubaixtuesday]

Please make it clear what you're struggling with. Copenhagen (population 1.39 million) presently has a capacity of around 8 GWh in its district heating storage. To place this in some context, Britain presently has around 34 GWh of capacity with its pumped storage systems such as Dinorwig and around 4 GWh of battery storage.

Thanks. Quantification helps enormously.

What's the source for the 8Gwh figure?

And what's the method of storage? This is sensible heat in water, right?

Yes, sensible heat. An engineer friend based in Copenhagen is the source for 8 GWh of water heat storage for Copenhagen district alone, he describes a system in a state of fairly rapid change with large expansions of storage expected to come on line over the next couple of decades.

Looking for myself, I see the main heat storage for Copenhagen is Vestforbrænding (20000 m3), Amager (48000 m3) and Høje Taastrup https://www.veks.dk/en/-/media/veks/fil ... _folder-uk (70000 m3). This industry tends to use ΔT as 40C, which for 138,000 m3 gives around 6.5 GWh storage capacity, using 50C gives around 8 GWh. I believe there are other, smaller storage capacity plants.

I wouldn't consider using surplus electrical energy in district heating to be storage. It's a good idea, but I would think that a storage system would allow the stored energy to be returned to the grid when needed.

It's a valid point that excess electricity stored as heat in water cannot economically be turned back into electricity, but if it satisfies space heating demand then it makes better economic sense to store the energy as hot water, providing losses are minimised.

Very interesting.

I'd not come across this before.

It appears that there is very little application outside Denmark. Within Denmark, it's even used for seasonal (!) storage, heated up in summer for use in winter, in some municipalities.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2X23026476

The Dutch do something similar with aquifers, according to that paper, though in smaller capacity.

I'm not sure how much this sort of low intensity (if that is the right word) storage has relevance outside of the context of space heating.

[briansnail]

the snail wrote: ↑

Is this a hack? if someone is legitimately using the "the snail " ok fine no problem but I know there is a bit of spamming and rogue AI bots on forums.If there is another snail at large?.We will share some mice lettuce.Sorry nice lettuce.

[roubaixtuesday]

the snail wrote: ↑

Is this a hack? if someone is legitimately using the "the snail " ok fine no problem but I know there is a bit of spamming and rogue AI bots on forums.If there is another snail at large?.We will share some mice lettuce.Sorry nice lettuce.

Don't worry Dylan, it's all above board

[Biospace]

Very interesting.

I'd not come across this before.

It appears that there is very little application outside Denmark. Within Denmark, it's even used for seasonal (!) storage, heated up in summer for use in winter, in some municipalities.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2X23026476

The Dutch do something similar with aquifers, according to that paper, though in smaller capacity.

I'm not sure how much this sort of low intensity (if that is the right word) storage has relevance outside of the context of space heating.

Space heating and hot water accounts for more energy than that supplied by our electricity Grid, it's around one quarter of our total energy consumption (https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... he-uk-2023).

Denmark's district heating systems are reported to require 30% to 40% less energy than if buildings/flats are heated individually, which even without the use of renewable energy, heat pumps and waste heat makes for a considerable reduction in carbon emissions and pollution.

It's a new approach which the Danes appear to be pioneering, the Germans and Swedes are studying its possibilities and China has a solar thermal powered one in Tibet, https://solarthermalworld.org/news/sdh- ... d-success/

[simonineaston]

I know this has been said before & I read too that Labour have committed to improve the situation, but I can't stop myself from whinging about it again...
* it isn't a market - electric current is electric current
* smart meters under many circs, weren't and remain so
* the regulator is a pointless sham
* the capping scam is just a cover for putting up prices.
What a flippin' dog's dinner!

[Biospace]

...
* the capping scam is just a cover for putting up prices.
What a flippin' dog's dinner!

The problem is how gas prices dictate the price we pay for our energy, even if the electricity is mostly from better value, less harmful sources - wind and solar. It'd be interesting to conduct a study in which households could buy their energy, real time, from their preferred source.

https://www.ft.com/content/cfb4ebfa-e45 ... 986cbf0781

[simonineaston]

Rather!
oh and I forgot to moan about the cynical and bare-faced way in which nearly every supplier has hiked their standing costs, at the exact same time most sensible folk have been trying their best to reduce their consumption.

[axel_knutt]

A new Danish system under construction at Esbjerg integrates waste incineration, sea water heat pump, woodchip burner, gas boiler, district heating, grid load balancing, and 3.5GWh of heat storage. There's another under construction three times the size.

[[XAP]Bob]

Rather!
oh and I forgot to moan about the cynical and bare-faced way in which nearly every supplier has hiked their standing costs, at the exact same time most sensible folk have been trying their best to reduce their consumption.

Again - it's not the suppliers which do this, it's the regulator.
Suppliers can charge slightly less than the regulator allows, but not much here - the network costs need to be passed on.

[simonineaston]

to be honest, I don't care who does it, the effects the same!

[the snail]

the snail wrote: ↑

Is this a hack? if someone is legitimately using the "the snail " ok fine no problem but I know there is a bit of spamming and rogue AI bots on forums.If there is another snail at large?.We will share some mice lettuce.Sorry nice lettuce.

Hey, I wuz yer first! I'm sure we can share the lettuce amicably tho

[Vorpal]

<leaves out lettuce for the snails>

[Biospace]

A new Danish system under construction at Esbjerg integrates waste incineration, sea water heat pump, woodchip burner, gas boiler, district heating, grid load balancing, and 3.5GWh of heat storage. There's another under construction three times the size.

A great example of Danish pragmatism, building what they need - low carbon heating using existing infrastructure at affordable prices. Not only does the system supply hot water directly into your home, it can provide cooling in summer.

It's not only Denmark, Sweden has over 1.5GW of heat pumps connected to its district heating systems which they began installing from the 1970s to use cheap rate electricity. The contrast with the UK's approach to energy supply is stark - connected to the Grid, UK energy consumers are at the mercy of volatile world spot prices after which we'll be tied to paying high prices to the French for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65321487