** The Climate Change Thread **

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simonineaston
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Re: Climate Change...

Post by simonineaston »

There are a handful of metrics that represent the simplicity of the problem, one being the rise in temperature in the troposphere. As we now know, even an increase of a fraction of each extra degree above the average over say the past two millennia, results in additional energy stored and that energy comes out as wind and rain. It's schoolboy/girl physics.
All other discussion is utterly pointless and leads us ignorant primates to conclude that there might be something we can do about the situation…
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Biospace »

It's the levels of Western consumption which are creating the problem. Fossil fuels have created the idea that energy is limitless for us, which brought enormous gains when we continued to have some sense left over from a time when it was limited but today isn't just polluting the whole planet - witness microplastics on the tops of mountains - but also encouraging the greedier, lazier elements to our behaviour.

2 or 3 tonne electric cars with hundreds of horsepower are only possible (for the masses) because of fossil fuel, we'd have something far more intelligent were we to rely on the sun, wind, rivers and oceans for our energy. EROI for oil has been very high, returns for renewable energy are considerably lower, lower still when electrical energy is cycled through storage.
axel_knutt
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Re: Climate Change...

Post by axel_knutt »

The problem is overconsumption of the resources we're dependent on. The ability of the atmosphere to serve as a dustbin for waste carbon is just one of those resources, and the idea that everything will be solved if we can just get a renewable source of energy is part of the problem. Unless we get out of the mindset that we have to keep consuming more for the sake of consuming more we'll just blunder into one crunch point after another as different resources run out.

A quote I heard on the World Service this week: "Anyone who thinks we can keep consuming more on a finite planet is either a madman or an economist".

I noticed some years ago that the narrative the BBC is feeding people subtly differs between the foreign audience and the locals, there's a definite attempt to let the home market keep thinking they can continue business as normal whilst warning others against following suit.

Jared Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Survive is an excellent analysis of all the civilisations of the past that have collapsed through overconsumption, the only difference this time is that our civilisation is global, not regional, and we now have the knowledge to see what we're doing. Diamond has it right, societies choose.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Jdsk »

axel_knutt wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:07pm ...
Jared Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Survive is an excellent analysis of all the civilisations of the past that have collapsed through overconsumption, the only difference this time is that our civilisation is global, not regional, and we now have the knowledge to see what we're doing. Diamond has it right, societies choose.
The whole point of Collapse is that there isn't a single common cause across the collapses which he has studied and described.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse: ... or_Succeed

Highly Recommended

Jonathan
Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Mike Sales »

axel_knutt wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:07pm The problem is overconsumption of the resources we're dependent on. The ability of the atmosphere to serve as a dustbin for waste carbon is just one of those resources, and the idea that everything will be solved if we can just get a renewable source of energy is part of the problem. Unless we get out of the mindset that we have to keep consuming more for the sake of consuming more we'll just blunder into one crunch point after another as different resources run out.

A quote I heard on the World Service this week: "Anyone who thinks we can keep consuming more on a finite planet is either a madman or an economist".

I noticed some years ago that the narrative the BBC is feeding people subtly differs between the foreign audience and the locals, there's a definite attempt to let the home market keep thinking they can continue business as normal whilst warning others against following suit.

Jared Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Survive is an excellent analysis of all the civilisations of the past that have collapsed through overconsumption, the only difference this time is that our civilisation is global, not regional, and we now have the knowledge to see what we're doing. Diamond has it right, societies choose.
Exactly.
Is not the longest thread in this cycling forum about BEVs and mostly about how we can continue our overconsumption lifestyle?
The warning symptoms of global warming are getting stronger and stronger, but our politicians tell us what we want to believe; that we can go on as we have become accustomed to, with the addition of a few wind turbines.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Biospace »

Mike Sales wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:21pm Exactly.
Is not the longest thread in this cycling forum about BEVs and mostly about how we can continue our overconsumption lifestyle?
The warning symptoms of global warming are getting stronger and stronger, but our politicians tell us what we want to believe; that we can go on as we have become accustomed to, with the addition of a few wind turbines.
It is indeed and you make the point very well. My last post suggested that rather than spending tens of thousands on the latest metal box, why not purchase something a little more in tune with our real needs and invest the rest in renewable energy for your home?
Pebble
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Re: Climate Change...

Post by Pebble »

Economies seem to be based around GDP and good GDP means selling each other more and more stuff of greater value

Can we have a great economy without this mindset? I have heard of a Human Development Index (HDI) may be that would be a better measure (how happy and healthy we all are)

or better still some sort of Environmental Performance Index (EPI) where a measure is taken of how well our flora and fauna are doing

Sadly "The Dream" is still of bigger cars, bigger houses, more clothes (all of which need to be bigger for our overfed bodies to fit into) and long haul holidays


(oh - and I forgot bigger earphones so our horses can listen in to their riders iPhones)
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:21pm ...
The warning symptoms of global warming are getting stronger and stronger, but our politicians tell us what we want to believe; that we can go on as we have become accustomed to, with the addition of a few wind turbines.
Except that no-one has said this... unless you can find some who have...

It's a massive problem and it isn't helped by rhetoric and exaggeration and straw man arguments.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 27746
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:37pm I have heard of a Human Development Index (HDI) may be that would be a better measure (how happy and healthy we all are)
Human Development Index:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Jonathan

PS: See recent discussion of social democracy...
Jdsk
Posts: 27746
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:37pm ...
or better still some sort of Environmental Performance Index (EPI) where a measure is taken of how well our flora and fauna are doing
...
I'd start with biodiversity at Our World in data:
https://ourworldindata.org/biodiversity

and the Living Planet Index:
https://www.livingplanetindex.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Planet_Index

Jonathan
Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Mike Sales »

Pebble wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:37pm Economies seem to be based around GDP and good GDP means selling each other more and more stuff of greater value

Can we have a great economy without this mindset? I have heard of a Human Development Index (HDI) may be that would be a better measure (how happy and healthy we all are)

or better still some sort of Environmental Performance Index (EPI) where a measure is taken of how well our flora and fauna are doing

Sadly "The Dream" is still of bigger cars, bigger houses, more clothes (all of which need to be bigger for our overfed bodies to fit into) and long haul holidays


(oh - and I forgot bigger earphones so our horses can listen in to their riders iPhones)
A minor irony is shown by a recent news item about the huge cost to our economy of vehicle damage caused by potholes. Since this damage generates economic activity to repair, it actually increases GDP.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
Posts: 27746
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Post by Jdsk »

Britain has just closed its last coal-fired power station, as posted elsewhere. Here's a report on how that's going in all OECD countries:
"Coal generation in OECD countries falls below half of its peak":
https://ember-climate.org/insights/rese ... g-material

And there's discussion of Germany getting there by 2030 rather than 2038.

Jonathan

Screenshot 2024-10-05 at 12.57.47.png
Pebble
Posts: 2080
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Pebble »

Mike Sales wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:53pm
Pebble wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:37pm Economies seem to be based around GDP and good GDP means selling each other more and more stuff of greater value

Can we have a great economy without this mindset? I have heard of a Human Development Index (HDI) may be that would be a better measure (how happy and healthy we all are)

or better still some sort of Environmental Performance Index (EPI) where a measure is taken of how well our flora and fauna are doing

Sadly "The Dream" is still of bigger cars, bigger houses, more clothes (all of which need to be bigger for our overfed bodies to fit into) and long haul holidays


(oh - and I forgot bigger earphones so our horses can listen in to their riders iPhones)
A minor irony is shown by a recent news item about the huge cost to our economy of vehicle damage caused by potholes. Since this damage generates economic activity to repair, it actually increases GDP.
this is the sort of madness which is probably true - as a global society we have entirely lost the plot
Mike Sales
Posts: 8218
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:38pm
Mike Sales wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:21pm ...
The warning symptoms of global warming are getting stronger and stronger, but our politicians tell us what we want to believe; that we can go on as we have become accustomed to, with the addition of a few wind turbines.
Except that no-one has said this... unless you can find some who have...

It's a massive problem and it isn't helped by rhetoric and exaggeration and straw man arguments.

Jonathan
The implications of many of the posts are clear. "How can we change to a BEV without having to change our lifestyle?' Will, for instance, a bicycle fit in a particular model of car? Will the vehicle have the range to manage our chosen journeys? Etc. Implicitly, these discussions are about whether an electric car would be able to sustain our present level of consumption, but not about how the change might require lifestyle change, in order to result in less damage to our planet.
I note the poll answer half of the respondents gave. Roads full of electric cars are little real improvement on the present.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
Posts: 27746
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Climate Change...

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 1:21pm
Jdsk wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:38pm
Mike Sales wrote: 5 Oct 2024, 12:21pm ...
The warning symptoms of global warming are getting stronger and stronger, but our politicians tell us what we want to believe; that we can go on as we have become accustomed to, with the addition of a few wind turbines.
Except that no-one has said this... unless you can find some who have...

It's a massive problem and it isn't helped by rhetoric and exaggeration and straw man arguments.
The implications of many of the posts are clear. "How can we change to a BEV without having to change our lifestyle?' Will, for instance, a bicycle fit in a particular model of car? Will the vehicle have the range to manage our chosen journeys? Etc. Implicitly, these discussions are about whether an electric car would be able to sustain our present level of consumption, but not about how the change might require lifestyle change, in order to result in less damage to our planet.
I note the poll answer half of the respondents gave. Roads full of electric cars are little real improvement on the present.
That's your interpretation and your "implicitly". I see people trying to share information with each other about car-like objects. Unless they say so I don't know if they are changing their lifestyles in relation to transport or anything else. And moving HPVs about by CLOs is clearly of interest to many forum posters.

Jonathan

PS: And of course there's no answer about any politician saying anything of the kind.

Jonathan
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