Hope in Israel/Palestine

[reohn2]

Interesting and poingnant speech on Gaza by Jordan's foreign minister in relation to Germany's continuing support for Israel's genocide and where it's leading in the long term:- https://youtu.be/1nALLvO8Tg4?si=flzB-2YfMvB454tz

Thanks for that link. Its so rare to hear someone talk about this ongoing war in such a reasonable calm tone.

+1,and talking complete sense for once!

[Jon in Sweden]

Interesting and poingnant speech on Gaza by Jordan's foreign minister in relation to Germany's continuing support for Israel's genocide and where it's leading in the long term:- https://youtu.be/1nALLvO8Tg4?si=flzB-2YfMvB454tz

What an incredibly succinct and analytical take on the current situation.

In many respects, Israel is digging it's own grave here. There may well come a tipping point where western support is reduced or withdrawn. It may be as a result of the horror of the atrocities that Israel is inflicting on it's neighbours. It may be as a result of an increase in US isolationism. It may be something completely unanticipated.

Either way, Israel must work towards building bridges with it's neighbours if it wants to survive in the long term.

After demolishing Gaza, I honestly feel that this is nearly impossible.

I've long thought and wondered why they didn't just transplant Israel to some similar sized part of the Midwestern USA. Israel is tiny when compared to even individual states, it'd cost the US a whole lot less money and Israeli Jews could live in a part of the world where they weren't universally hated.

The issue of course is the religious one.....

[Jdsk]

...
I've long thought and wondered why they didn't just transplant Israel to some similar sized part of the Midwestern USA. Israel is tiny when compared to even individual states, it'd cost the US a whole lot less money and Israeli Jews could live in a part of the world where they weren't universally hated.

The issue of course is the religious one.....

A few previous bright ideas, including one in the USA:

"Proposals for a Jewish state":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals ... wish_state

Jonathan

[Tangled Metal]

Is that as far fetched as intercepting electronic pagers, fitting them with explosive devices and then allowing for their redistribution? Or less so? It's the litmus test, because if Israel was behind that plan - then placing bugs in the toilet is within the realm of possibilities ..

Why? Did Boris also say that Israel put explosives in their pagers too?

I think there is a key difference, Hezbollah is the enemy and we are the ally.

Not on any personal level. As far as I am aware, I have never been threatened by hezbollah specifically nor any faith group generally. I even get on with my partners brother in law who is Muslim.. I keep reminding him that he shouldn't drink alcohol
As far as I am aware, I have not asked for the deaths of any civilians in this situation, and it is my hope that all those facing un claims for war crimes (on both sides) are swiftly brought to justice.

Have you been threatened by Israel? So far no exploding pagers have gone off in the UK. As to positives, I bet you have had a fair amount of Israelis products over the years whether it si fruit and veg or more technical products or products used by services you use. Less so hezbollah. All they offer is an islamist terrorist mindset.

As to being a threat? Well Hezbollah are an Iranian proxy and Iran are a big threat. I once saw a report on the number of foreign espionage resources focused on the UK. IIRC the big four were Russia, China, North Korea and Iran. Not necessorialy in that order. IIRC NK had more remote assets such as hackers. Iran had a lot of them but also a lot of analysts and actual on the ground assets.

[Tangled Metal]

Interesting and poingnant speech on Gaza by Jordan's foreign minister in relation to Germany's continuing support for Israel's genocide and where it's leading in the long term:- https://youtu.be/1nALLvO8Tg4?si=flzB-2YfMvB454tz

What an incredibly succinct and analytical take on the current situation.

In many respects, Israel is digging it's own grave here. There may well come a tipping point where western support is reduced or withdrawn. It may be as a result of the horror of the atrocities that Israel is inflicting on it's neighbours. It may be as a result of an increase in US isolationism. It may be something completely unanticipated.

Either way, Israel must work towards building bridges with it's neighbours if it wants to survive in the long term.

After demolishing Gaza, I honestly feel that this is nearly impossible.

I've long thought and wondered why they didn't just transplant Israel to some similar sized part of the Midwestern USA. Israel is tiny when compared to even individual states, it'd cost the US a whole lot less money and Israeli Jews could live in a part of the world where they weren't universally hated.

The issue of course is the religious one.....

Be careful who you say that to. It has been an antisemitic trope to put israel in USA, IIRC within the boundaries of Ohio!! In fact I believe a muslim labour MP got into trouble over reposting that classic image of the shape of Israel within that US state.

I once read that the founding of a Jewish homeland in what is now Israel is in their version of the book or some other religious traditions in some branches of Judaism. Apparently the founding of a Jewish homeland is linked to the end of days in an apocalypse kind of belief. So technically are Zionists not hastening the end of the world??? This is possibly a trope and untrue but if it is then all this makes sense, a jewish homeland in the midst of islamic neighbours who hate them, with the nuclear bomb!!

[Jon in Sweden]

Be careful who you say that to. It has been an antisemitic trope to put israel in USA, IIRC within the boundaries of Ohio!! In fact I believe a muslim labour MP got into trouble over reposting that classic image of the shape of Israel within that US state.

I once read that the founding of a Jewish homeland in what is now Israel is in their version of the book or some other religious traditions in some branches of Judaism. Apparently the founding of a Jewish homeland is linked to the end of days in an apocalypse kind of belief. So technically are Zionists not hastening the end of the world??? This is possibly a trope and untrue but if it is then all this makes sense, a jewish homeland in the midst of islamic neighbours who hate them, with the nuclear bomb!!

I am an athiest of strong conviction so the justification of anything due to religious doctrine is something that falls on deaf ears with me.

It may be over simplistic, but I would have thought that above all, the Jewish people would want to feel safe. And in the Middle East, it will never happen. The situation that we find ourselves in today is complex and cluttered, with blame that can be aportioned onto almost everyone. But the simple fact of the matter is that Israel, in it's current guise and under it's current leadership, is a war machine and is intently disposing of any future possibility of peace by diplomatic means.

I do believe that the right of the Israeli government (and society) believes that in order to secure Israel's future, that all surrounding peoples/powers must be pounded into submission.

It may work for a few years, a decade or two, but they the most likely (and some would say inevitable) outcome is that another October 7th will happen, perpetrated by the people orphaned by the IDF.

It's a miserable and intractible situation, hence my inquiry as to whether a national transplant would be the least worst option.

[Jon in Sweden]

A few previous bright ideas, including one in the USA:

"Proposals for a Jewish state":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals ... wish_state

Jonathan

Very interesting - thank you for sharing

[Tangled Metal]

Be careful who you say that to. It has been an antisemitic trope to put israel in USA, IIRC within the boundaries of Ohio!! In fact I believe a muslim labour MP got into trouble over reposting that classic image of the shape of Israel within that US state.

I once read that the founding of a Jewish homeland in what is now Israel is in their version of the book or some other religious traditions in some branches of Judaism. Apparently the founding of a Jewish homeland is linked to the end of days in an apocalypse kind of belief. So technically are Zionists not hastening the end of the world??? This is possibly a trope and untrue but if it is then all this makes sense, a jewish homeland in the midst of islamic neighbours who hate them, with the nuclear bomb!!

I am an athiest of strong conviction so the justification of anything due to religious doctrine is something that falls on deaf ears with me.

It may be over simplistic, but I would have thought that above all, the Jewish people would want to feel safe. And in the Middle East, it will never happen. The situation that we find ourselves in today is complex and cluttered, with blame that can be aportioned onto almost everyone. But the simple fact of the matter is that Israel, in it's current guise and under it's current leadership, is a war machine and is intently disposing of any future possibility of peace by diplomatic means.

I do believe that the right of the Israeli government (and society) believes that in order to secure Israel's future, that all surrounding peoples/powers must be pounded into submission.

It may work for a few years, a decade or two, but they the most likely (and some would say inevitable) outcome is that another October 7th will happen, perpetrated by the people orphaned by the IDF.

It's a miserable and intractible situation, hence my inquiry as to whether a national transplant would be the least worst option.

It is irrelevant that you are an atheist. That trope about transplanting to America or indeed anywhere is considered antisemitic by the Israelis and many non israeli Jewish groups. It got a labour MP into trouble. Naz Shah MP fro Bradford West. I think she had the labour whip removed in 2016 and stood as an independent until she apologised fully and got reinstated (in the Corbyn era before he got forced to accept international definition for antisemitism IIRC).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 01406.html

My point being is that offence is not what offends you but what offends the recipient of such ideas. Israel and the Jewish homeland is rooted in where it is and to talk about sticking it wherever you feel acceptable other than Israel of course is often cause to offend. Would you agree with the english being relocated to USA because Welsh and Scottish didn't like them? Or change the nations around according to where you hail from or identify with.

[Jon in Sweden]

I disagree.

I reject any religion's assertion that they have a right to land by way of religious doctrine. It's a nonsense.

As I said, I would have thought that people feeling safe in their home is of the utmost importance. Israel, as it is at the moment, shows no desire to live peacefully with it's neighbours. Much like the US used one tragedy (911) as a pretext to start a bloody war (Afghanistan and Iraq), Netenyahu has used October 7th as a pretext to enact all rightwing agendas for the establishment of a Greater Israel by way of subjugating it's neighbours.

I don't reject the concept of a Jewish homeland (even if I think that the underlying theology is nonsense). I just question the logic of having it in a part of the world where everyone hates you because you have a genocidal military state, enforcing apartheid on anyone who isn't Jewish.

[cycle tramp]

I disagree.

I reject any religion's assertion that they have a right to land by way of religious doctrine. It's a nonsense.

As I said, I would have thought that people feeling safe in their home is of the utmost importance. Israel, as it is at the moment, shows no desire to live peacefully with it's neighbours. Much like the US used one tragedy (911) as a pretext to start a bloody war (Afghanistan and Iraq), Netenyahu has used October 7th as a pretext to enact all rightwing agendas for the establishment of a Greater Israel by way of subjugating it's neighbours.

I'm with Jon on this one

Personally I like the idea of religion, the way that different rituals are passed through generations, connecting their followers, those same emotions and experiences being passed on...
For many people it gives them hope and comforts them, especially in times of stress. It gives structure to the passing of time, and can and has been a reason for charitable acts...

However I have a line.. and that line is when a made up belief based on no logic or evidence is used to steal from or harm other people. When one group believes that they are 'God's chosen people' and as a result they treat those of differing religions less than they would themselves....

If I went around claiming that my neighbours legally owned shed was actually mine because God told me that it was, everyone would think I was mad.... likewise if I went around saying that women should have less rights than men for the same reason, I'd hope that I would equally be seen as mad.

As far as I can tell if religion has one purpose it was to bring this world closer to an ideal of heaven, where all needs are met, there is no illness of harm.... we're a long way from this ideal, and it seems ironic that one of the reasons for this fall at the feet of those who claim to be the most pious.

(Queue Motorhead 'God was never on your side')
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o1hSSuc42P8

[cycle tramp]

Be careful who you say that to. It has been an antisemitic trope to put israel in USA, IIRC within the boundaries of Ohio!! In fact I believe a muslim labour MP got into trouble over reposting that classic image of the shape of Israel within that US state.

I once read that the founding of a Jewish homeland in what is now Israel is in their version of the book or some other religious traditions in some branches of Judaism. Apparently the founding of a Jewish homeland is linked to the end of days in an apocalypse kind of belief. So technically are Zionists not hastening the end of the world??? This is possibly a trope and untrue but if it is then all this makes sense, a jewish homeland in the midst of islamic neighbours who hate them, with the nuclear bomb!!

I am an athiest of strong conviction so the justification of anything due to religious doctrine is something that falls on deaf ears with me.

It is irrelevant that you are an atheist. That trope about transplanting to America or indeed anywhere is considered antisemitic by the Israelis and many non israeli Jewish groups.

No it's not, if anything it lends a greater clarity of thought.. away from the mythical father figure (Zeus, Odin, or whoever (sorry I've forgotten my Egyptian Pantheon, but I think they had an Eagle head*) who will punish us for our rebellion against his wishes, or for not loving him enough or for questioning the idea of faith..

There is nothing wrong with the criticism of any religion nor asking the questions 'what is religion for, who does it serve?' There's nothing wrong with asking , should it even exist anymore?

...what is perhaps irrelevant is the claim that some people are offended when they are hear criticism of a countries current foreign policy or some other view that they don't like.. .. saying 'I'm offended' is easy, what gives the statement any merit is the explanation as to the reason why.

(*and here's the thing, if we dismiss these older gods as not existing, have never existed then perhaps its time for deeper discussions of religion and its place in the world).

Queue new model army's ten commandment (song) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=inYmMuQX7Dg

[mattheus]

I don't reject the concept of a Jewish homeland (even if I think that the underlying theology is nonsense). I just question the logic of having it in a part of the world where everyone hates you because you have a genocidal military state, enforcing apartheid on anyone who isn't Jewish.

People can be very selective in how much history they consider when analysing this problem.

Was it really the Israelis that first started enforcing a Judaism-based apartheid? [Clue: you might want to look at the 1930s]

[simonineaston]

It's a bit of a race isn't it… which’ll get us first - climate chaos (coming up fast on the rails), or the next pandemic (imagine if C19 had been more deadly…) or else a third world war, kicked off by the Israeli’s avowed intent to scupper Iran’s nuclear programme. I don't think the current Israeli administration will stop till they’ve tried this. The only solution is to replace them.
As frequently happens with these things (see World Wars 1a & 1b) it's the dragging in of allies that really sets these things off.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephenpas ... r-strikes/

[cycle tramp]

I don't reject the concept of a Jewish homeland (even if I think that the underlying theology is nonsense). I just question the logic of having it in a part of the world where everyone hates you because you have a genocidal military state, enforcing apartheid on anyone who isn't Jewish.

People can be very selective in how much history they consider when analysing this problem.

Was it really the Israelis that first started enforcing a Judaism-based apartheid? [Clue: you might want to look at the 1930s]

The thing about history is that it happened in the past, as opposed to more recent events https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... -humanity/

[mattheus]

The thing about history is that it happened in the past, as opposed to more recent events

Surely recent events also happened in the past?!?

But then nothing would surprise me in the post-truth world ...