Road pricing - pay per mile
Road pricing - pay per mile
I’ve seen quite a bit of comment about the possible introduction of Road Pricing for motor vehicles, including BEV’s. With the switch to Electric cars, the Govt are losing out on revenue from Fuel Duty and (currently) Vehicle Excise Duty. So they are going to have to make up the shortfall somehow and one suggestion is Pay per Mile, using ANPR cameras.
If this only applies to main roads, will it push more traffic onto side roads and country lanes? Or could it be a good thing and actually result in a reduction in car use, and perhaps an increase in cycle usage for shorter journeys?
If this only applies to main roads, will it push more traffic onto side roads and country lanes? Or could it be a good thing and actually result in a reduction in car use, and perhaps an increase in cycle usage for shorter journeys?
Sherwood CC and Notts CTC.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
It's getting on a bit now, but the best review that I know is from the IFS:
"A road map for motoring taxation":
https://ifs.org.uk/books/road-map-motoring-taxation
Jonathan
"A road map for motoring taxation":
https://ifs.org.uk/books/road-map-motoring-taxation
Jonathan
Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
In home car chargers have a facility to charge ved if it's mandated. These are the bigger chargers not the 13 amp domestic 3 pin plug.
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway X2, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840
Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
Ah... it looks as if this was triggered by a comment from the Chair of the National Infrastructure Commission:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -shortfall
Jonathan
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -shortfall
Jonathan
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
To my mind it’s a no-brainer to charge VED on electric vehicles and to use forms of smart metering to charge additional taxes on electricity delivered for vehicle use. That system would replicate what we currently have and could be refined over time. It’d be hard and likely not possible to charge extra for power used via ‘granny chargers’, I think that that would be tolerable. V2X exchanges might be impacted, that’s something to work around.TrevA wrote: ↑10 Oct 2024, 5:15pm I’ve seen quite a bit of comment about the possible introduction of Road Pricing for motor vehicles, including BEV’s. With the switch to Electric cars, the Govt are losing out on revenue from Fuel Duty and (currently) Vehicle Excise Duty. So they are going to have to make up the shortfall somehow and one suggestion is Pay per Mile, using ANPR cameras.
If this only applies to main roads, will it push more traffic onto side roads and country lanes? Or could it be a good thing and actually result in a reduction in car use, and perhaps an increase in cycle usage for shorter journeys?
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
Why not work it out from the MoT (or a check for the newer vehicles).
Using APNRs would be a disaster. I've seen plenty of traffic on parallel roads to avoid motorway tolls in the EU to know that many would go out of their way to avoid it.
Charging charging also difficult. My friend has solar panels and a battery. Can charge from that or via a slow 13 amp charger. Lower use users no problem to top up from household plugs a bit each day.
In NZ (or was) they don't have red diesel, it's all cheap. Vehicles are charged on their mileage read during MOT equivalent.
There could be a pay per month, adjusted annually
Using APNRs would be a disaster. I've seen plenty of traffic on parallel roads to avoid motorway tolls in the EU to know that many would go out of their way to avoid it.
Charging charging also difficult. My friend has solar panels and a battery. Can charge from that or via a slow 13 amp charger. Lower use users no problem to top up from household plugs a bit each day.
In NZ (or was) they don't have red diesel, it's all cheap. Vehicles are charged on their mileage read during MOT equivalent.
There could be a pay per month, adjusted annually
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
The problem I can see with an MOT-mileage based system is that it would be retrospective, and therefore pose collection problems. Oh, and it wouldn’t work at all for MOT exempt vehicles, so antiques and ones less than three years old!
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
I think that old vehicles are exempt from VED too, so no change there. There might be some odometer fraud but it can be managed (what do they do elsewhere?) . Newer vehicles could have an obligation to declared mileage annually and payment in advance is possible.Nearholmer wrote: ↑10 Oct 2024, 8:45pm The problem I can see with an MOT-mileage based system is that it would be retrospective, and therefore pose collection problems. Oh, and it wouldn’t work at all for MOT exempt vehicles, so antiques and ones less than three years old!
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
Tis basic market economics. If you want to allocate a resource efficiently then use the price mechanism to match supply and demand. The alternative is to ration resources by queue. We organise pretty much everything else by charging users, so it seems absurd to apply socialism to motorists.
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
Simple - if you prefer drivers to use the main road then make the charge for the parallel roads higher.
Similarly people can be discouraged from using the roads at busy times by varying the charge over time.
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
I tend to think that it can only work well to manage congestion, and to incentivise the use of other modes, if applied as a per mile charge, varied quite closely by time and place, with exemptions/reliefs for, for instance, disabled people who would genuinely struggle to use alternative means of transport.
The “tech” is now probably at a point where it could manage that if designed carefully.
The amount of opposition would be enormous, and some of it would tip over into wacko stuff, followed by violence, because thats the way everything goes these days …….. there are probably people out there who think that their domestic gas meter is a spy on behalf of the state/bill gates/the illuminati.
One option to eliminate the over-gathering of data might be a stored-value system, where one could load credits onto a card to be inserted in the car-borne device before setting-off, and the “meter would run down” as one drove along. Although even that would probably gather locational data in the background, simply because systems always record devices logged onto cells.
In practice, people seem to trade ease of use for data gathering. If you look at TfL revenue collection, that has gone through multiple iterations, with the present system involving electronic post-event drawdown from the user’s bank account, rather than stored-value, and people find it very convenient - it led to an increase in bus and tube trips when introduced because of the way that “capping” was implemented.
The “tech” is now probably at a point where it could manage that if designed carefully.
The amount of opposition would be enormous, and some of it would tip over into wacko stuff, followed by violence, because thats the way everything goes these days …….. there are probably people out there who think that their domestic gas meter is a spy on behalf of the state/bill gates/the illuminati.
One option to eliminate the over-gathering of data might be a stored-value system, where one could load credits onto a card to be inserted in the car-borne device before setting-off, and the “meter would run down” as one drove along. Although even that would probably gather locational data in the background, simply because systems always record devices logged onto cells.
In practice, people seem to trade ease of use for data gathering. If you look at TfL revenue collection, that has gone through multiple iterations, with the present system involving electronic post-event drawdown from the user’s bank account, rather than stored-value, and people find it very convenient - it led to an increase in bus and tube trips when introduced because of the way that “capping” was implemented.
Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
Cancel VED and just up the tax on petrol and diesel....simple.
Gas guzzlers will pay the most and it will make electric cars more attractive
Al
Gas guzzlers will pay the most and it will make electric cars more attractive
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
Which wouldn’t raise the funds to make up for the shortfall, and would be a hugely regressive tax, favouring the well-off at the expense of the rural skint.
Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
So since that particular line of reasoning ends with everyone using EVs and nobody paying tax, where are you going to make up the revenue shortfall?
Also...
Electric cars are mainly about saving car culture, anything else is a bit of a side effect.
Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile
Which is why successive governments of both colours have kicked the issue down the road for so long and why we're now in a situation of "we need to do something fairly quickly" and that's rarely a recipe for getting it right or getting the requisite buy-in.Nearholmer wrote: ↑11 Oct 2024, 8:31am The amount of opposition would be enormous, and some of it would tip over into wacko stuff, followed by violence, because thats the way everything goes these days ……..
Many countries have toll roads - most of the motorways in France are paege , much of the expressway roads in various urban centres in Australia and even over here many people are used to it - the M6 Toll, the Dartford Bridge and so on.
The data and tracking is irrelevant. The country is already covered by ANPR, you'll routinely use your bank card, and the Government already knows where you work, what you do and how much you earn! I'm not really sure that it'll matter much if they know you drove 3 junctions up the M1 on Thursday...