Road pricing - pay per mile

Pebble
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Pebble »

and 'showing off' with ones chariot is also so embedded within peoples lifestyles they would still choose that ridiculously oversized 4x4 whatever it cost - which would give us optional taxation

EV's under 500kg with less than 50bhp of power get to use the roads for free - a giant 4x4 with 500bhp £5,000 per year + £5 mile - they would pay

Speeding fines without penalty points (this could be very dangerous) but raise a serious amount of money.

I love the idea of optional taxation - 100% - 200% vat on unhealthy fast foods and subsidies vegetables and fruit - let those who care little for the rest of us pay for it.
Ron
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Ron »

I would hope there will never be 'Pay per Mile., but would happily pay a sum related to the distance I wish to travel.
Support 'Pay per kilometre', and kill off the present use of Imperial and Metric measuring units for road distances 8) .
jimster99
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by jimster99 »

The thing I find most depressing is the cynical re-coating of the need to maintain government revenues as somehow a health-and-safety initiative, e.g. "electric car tyres cause emissions so we need to tax that to reduce it and make people healthy".

Well, that's presumably also been true of petrol cars over the last 100+ years hasn't it? Why didn't we do something about it before? Couldn't we have saved many lives if we had? Why is it only just now an issue?

Reality check: any change to motor taxation will be exclusively driven by the need to maintain government revenues. That's not a bad thing and if admitted the rules could be drafted to fairly spread the burden in the most equitable manner, rather than being distorted by an entirely fake pretence that it's about health in an effort to make it more palatable to the electorate. (Health Good! Taxes Bad!!)
Mike Sales
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Mike Sales »

I think all activities should pay for their externalities, including road vehicles, whether propelled by electricity or fossil fuel. Pollution of all kinds has costs, and those who benefit need to pay them.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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pjclinch
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by pjclinch »

jimster99 wrote: 14 Oct 2024, 11:35am The thing I find most depressing is the cynical re-coating of the need to maintain government revenues as somehow a health-and-safety initiative, e.g. "electric car tyres cause emissions so we need to tax that to reduce it and make people healthy".

Well, that's presumably also been true of petrol cars over the last 100+ years hasn't it? Why didn't we do something about it before? Couldn't we have saved many lives if we had? Why is it only just now an issue?

Reality check: any change to motor taxation will be exclusively driven by the need to maintain government revenues. That's not a bad thing and if admitted the rules could be drafted to fairly spread the burden in the most equitable manner, rather than being distorted by an entirely fake pretence that it's about health in an effort to make it more palatable to the electorate. (Health Good! Taxes Bad!!)
It's not one or the other. Just because they need the revenue doesn't mean it can't be targeted to achieve some useful aim.

Why didn't we do something before? Well, to some degree we did, e.g. removing VED from the least polluting cars. And even if we hadn't done anything before would that mean we shouldn't start doing something now?

As the realisation starts to spread that everyone driving everywhere and expecting to park anywhere isn't actually quite the Great Idea it seemed in 1950, so is the realisation starting to spread that we can influence behaviour change by targeted taxation, and the likes of sugar taxes, minimum alcohol pricing etc. are other examples of using tax to guide culture.

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jimster99
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by jimster99 »

pjclinch wrote: 14 Oct 2024, 1:12pmIt's not one or the other. Just because they need the revenue doesn't mean it can't be targeted to achieve some useful aim.
I don't disagree (I would e.g. be in favour of pedestrianzing all city centres even though I do drive a car) but this is not the point I was making.

I am just exasperated at the essentially dishonest discourse on a matter of critical public policy. The real headlines should be: How do we replace the future expected loss in petrol tax revenue rather than "We suddenly need to tax electric cars because they have TYRES".
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pjclinch
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by pjclinch »

jimster99 wrote: 14 Oct 2024, 1:19pm
pjclinch wrote: 14 Oct 2024, 1:12pmIt's not one or the other. Just because they need the revenue doesn't mean it can't be targeted to achieve some useful aim.
I don't disagree (I would e.g. be in favour of pedestrianzing all city centres even though I do drive a car) but this is not the point I was making.

I am just exasperated at the essentially dishonest discourse on a matter of critical public policy. The real headlines should be: How do we replace the future expected loss in petrol tax revenue rather than "We suddenly need to tax electric cars because they have TYRES".
I think the real headlines should be How do we replace the future expected loss in petrol tax revenue and take advantage of the opportunity to deprecate private motoring (however it's powered) because it's hideously polluting, dangerous and dehumanises our towns and we need to do it less".

We need the revenue and we need emphasis on less driving.

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rareposter
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by rareposter »

jimster99 wrote: 14 Oct 2024, 1:19pm I am just exasperated at the essentially dishonest discourse on a matter of critical public policy. The real headlines should be: How do we replace the future expected loss in petrol tax revenue rather than "We suddenly need to tax electric cars because they have TYRES".
Sort of but there are a couple of issues - the main one being that as soon as you suggest possibly, just maybe, restricting car use (or increasing tax on car use), The Public - and large portions of the media - have a collective meltdown about freedom and "what about the elderly and disabled?" and the reasons WHY there are restrictions (or increased tax) get lost in the maelstrom of media frenzy.

It's nearly impossible to have a sensible conversation about stuff like this which is why the can has been kicked down the road for so long. No Government wants to touch it.

Lots of people are in favour of driving less. So long as it's everyone else who has to drive less, not them. Same as lots of people are in favour of public transport - but don't put a bus lane there cos otherwise I won't be able to park.
Biospace
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Biospace »

Pebble wrote: 12 Oct 2024, 1:02am and 'showing off' with ones chariot is also so embedded within peoples lifestyles they would still choose that ridiculously oversized 4x4 whatever it cost - which would give us optional taxation

EV's under 500kg with less than 50bhp of power get to use the roads for free - a giant 4x4 with 500bhp £5,000 per year + £5 mile
...
Human nature is to show off, in all sorts of ways. Despite recommending BEVs to friends for over a decade, in part I was prompted to start the BEV thread discussion because of some rather depressing conversations with sanctimonious owners of larger, more 'luxury' BEVs whose understandings of the physical realities of this world were more shaped by sales talk than reality.

I'd show off a 450kg 50hp vehicle, were it a great design - I'd want for others to follow.
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plancashire
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by plancashire »

Nearholmer wrote: 11 Oct 2024, 12:37pm ...
One thing I don’t think this discussion has touched on is whether the tax and fares regimes should be used to incentivise getting about other than by car where possible. It would need a lot of care to avoid accidentally creating regressive tax regimes, but I personally think it would be the right thing to do for all of our good.
Charges for parking are the way to go here. BEVs also park. If you think taxing fuel or miles is controversial, just try universal charges for parking on public space. The book "Paved Paradise" opens with a fight scene. I mentioned this excellent book elsewhere in this forum.
I am NOT a cyclist. I enjoy riding a bike for utility, commuting, fitness and touring on tout terrain Rohloff, Brompton M3 and Wester Ross 354 plus a Burley Travoy trailer.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Bmblbzzz »

One of those classic songs that, like Janis Joplin's "Mercedes Benz", gets used to say the opposite of what it's actually about.
Carlton green
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Carlton green »

Biospace wrote: 14 Oct 2024, 3:57pm
Human nature is to show off, in all sorts of ways. Despite recommending BEVs to friends for over a decade, in part I was prompted to start the BEV thread discussion because of some rather depressing conversations with sanctimonious owners of larger, more 'luxury' BEVs whose understandings of the physical realities of this world were more shaped by sales talk than reality.

I'd show off a 450kg 50hp vehicle, were it a great design - I'd want for others to follow.
Human nature has all types of issues. Interestingly we legislate for safety issues (like drink drive, emissions and MOT tests) but we don’t legislate on the size of vehicles. Legislation on size, weight and power is long overdue. I’d be very pleased to drive a light and low powered vehicle again: at one point my family had a 2CV, it was a very capable vehicle that did some very long journeys at a decent pace. Vehicle manufacturers don’t want us to have such simple vehicles, there’s too little profit in them.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by al_yrpal »

The answer as I said upthread is simply to put all the tax on fuel, after all that is ultimately the thing making the emissions. The more you use, the more you pay. As for it adversly affecting low income folk, they can acquire small economical vehicles for peanuts, as they do...., or use public or personal transport like bikes.

Al
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Carlton green
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Carlton green »

al_yrpal wrote: 17 Oct 2024, 9:48am The answer as I said upthread is simply to put all the tax on fuel, after all that is ultimately the thing making the emissions. The more you use, the more you pay. As for it adversly affecting low income folk, they can acquire small economical vehicles for peanuts, as they do...., or use public or personal transport like bikes.

Al
That’s a step in the right direction but the stupid but poor will still run a car that does, say, ten miles per gallon and the rich care not a jot about fuel consumption. So giving people the choice only influences part of the population. Electric vehicles don’t pay fuel tax yet and (when it does) similar will apply to its use as is the case at the moment with fossil fuels. Ultimately some choice has to be taken away from people because a significant percentage of them are incapable of behaving sensibly. That’s life and hence there’s laws which say (for example) that you can only have one wife and can only drink so much alcohol before being deemed unfit to drive.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 11 Oct 2024, 12:22pm
rjb wrote: 10 Oct 2024, 5:26pm In home car chargers have a facility to charge ved if it's mandated. These are the bigger chargers not the 13 amp domestic 3 pin plug.
What are you describing here, please?
What would be needed is identification that the energy is being used for a BEV on public roads, identification of the particular vehicle, and means of transmission of the data. All to auditable standards.

I don't think that's possible with current (!) technology. Although it wouldn't be far off for charging (!) away from home.

Jonathan
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