I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
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Audax67
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by Audax67 »

banksee wrote: 17 Oct 2024, 8:38pm I don't know the current and voltage of my motor, but I definitely intend to restrict it to 15.5mph.
The critical parameters of my motor are passcode-protected, and the supplier does the set-up - wheel- & tyre-size, basic assistance level and max speed - with his back turned and keeps the code secret. Sounds a bit dodgy to leave it to the user, since the supplier may be liable in case of accidents at an illegal speed.

ETA: according to EU regs, probably copied by UK legislation, you're allowed a 10% margin of error, so you'd be OK with 17 mph.
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simonineaston
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by simonineaston »

All a bit hypothetical... try to imagine the enforcement officer at the roadside, connecting up their testing equipment and conducting the test. " Oh" he/she says, "I see you're just 8% over the legal limit. We regard that as acceptable, so I'm going to let you continue on your way - let's hope your customer's pot-sticker dumplings are just as tasty as when they left the dodgy portacabin 20 minutes ago...".
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Carlton green
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by Carlton green »

500 watt is illegal, full stop and no argument. Whether you will ever be caught and suffer penalty for using one is another matter, but I suggest that obeying the law is the way to go.

To my mind the sellers of these kits should be taken to court, they facilitate their illegal use and know full well that their use will almost certainly be illegal. I note that eBay are about to stop allowing the sale of second hand e-bikes on their site, they should also do similar with new kit that’s (virtually always) illegal to use in this country.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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Audax67
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by Audax67 »

simonineaston wrote: 18 Oct 2024, 8:54am All a bit hypothetical... try to imagine the enforcement officer at the roadside, connecting up their testing equipment and conducting the test. " Oh" he/she says, "I see you're just 8% over the legal limit. We regard that as acceptable, so I'm going to let you continue on your way - let's hope your customer's pot-sticker dumplings are just as tasty as when they left the dodgy portacabin 20 minutes ago...".
Portable radars exist and have actually been deployed on a cycle path near us. You can always say it was your mighty thews that were propelling you at 20 mph, of course.
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rareposter
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by rareposter »

Carlton green wrote: 18 Oct 2024, 10:31am 500 watt is illegal, full stop and no argument. Whether you will ever be caught and suffer penalty for using one is another matter, but I suggest that obeying the law is the way to go.
It's not as simple as that. The motor cannot give out more than 250W constantly, however the peak power can be very much higher. My (completely legit, bought as a complete bike from the manufacturer, fully EU and UK compliant) e-cargo bike is capable of up to 600W peak power and you need that oomph to get the fully loaded thing going.

Once on the move, it does the usual EAPC things - you have to pedal to use the motor, it cuts out at 16mph, there's no throttle, the motor isn't putting out more than 250W continuous and so on.

If the OP's aftermarket kit is the same and it can be configured not to do more than 250W continuous and to cut out at 16mph, require pedalling etc then it'll be legal. On the other hand if it's got a throttle, will power at >250W continuous, won't cut out at 16mph or when not pedalling then it's not legal. And in fact a 200W motor that did all that wouldn't be legal either in spite of the power being below the legal maximum.
Nearholmer
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by Nearholmer »

A motor, any electrical device in fact, has a rating characteristic of the general form shown by the orange curve:
IMG_1794.jpeg

The true continuous rating is where the curve becomes asymptotic to the horizontal, but designers can quite legitimately play many tunes with this in the context of the EAPC Regulations, depending upon what they are trying to achieve.

They can use one, high continuous rating, motor across all markets, to avoid having to procure oodles of different ones to meet national regulations, and use configurable controls packaged as part of the motor to artificially limit rating for some markets.

They can “shape” any limits in different ways, maybe applying a fixed cap on maximum output (cheap to implement but a bit frustrating for users), or a limit that takes advantage of the inherent capability of the motor for durations less than the specified test duration for “continuous” (which I think is half an hour).

They can use motors selected very tightly for specific markets, so maybe ones that really can only just about handle 250W for the specified test duration for the European market, because doing so might result in the motors being cheaper than the above approach.

They can (I’m fairly sure) decide what ambient conditions to rate for, which can make a huge difference.

Etc.

And, dodgy cheapskates can stick any old rating label on any old motor, and hope not to suffer any penalty for doing so!
stodd
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by stodd »

rareposter wrote: 18 Oct 2024, 12:27pm If the OP's aftermarket kit is the same and it can be configured not to do more than 250W continuous and to cut out at 16mph, require pedalling etc then it'll be legal.
It's not the continuous power that counts, it's the rated continuous power of the motor. There is very little said in the law about how the rating is to be done, and it's done by the manufacturer. If the motor is rated 500w it is illegal regardless of any configuration.

It is really the controller that is the main factor, not the motor, but the law does not take that into account.
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by PH »

stodd wrote: 18 Oct 2024, 1:46pm If the motor is rated 500w it is illegal regardless of any configuration.
In this instance, it was sold as 500w, yet supplied with stickers saying it's 250w. We can't even be sure what the manufacturer is rating it at!
Cadence
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by Cadence »

PH wrote: 18 Oct 2024, 4:33pm
stodd wrote: 18 Oct 2024, 1:46pm If the motor is rated 500w it is illegal regardless of any configuration.
In this instance, it was sold as 500w, yet supplied with stickers saying it's 250w. We can't even be sure what the manufacturer is rating it at!
The photo of the sticker that the OP says came with the kit doesn't have the manufacturer's name on it. I suspect that the motor has the manufacturer's name printed or engraved on it along with the voltage and 500w. If so, the user is being "invited' to cover the original markings with the label to give the appearance of a legal motor. No comeback for the supplier if discovered. "We didn't put that sticker on!"😉
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simonineaston
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by simonineaston »

Audax67 wrote: 18 Oct 2024, 10:56am
Portable radars exist and have actually been deployed on a cycle path near us. You can always say it was your mighty thews that were propelling you at 20 mph, of course.
I have to admit I bang on rather about Bristol’s army of food delivery cyclists as I see lots of evidence of an awkward paradox. On the one hand, it's easy to cock a snook at them all, what with their grotty ebikes, all wound with duct tape, with or without pedals, zooming about, on pavement, path and carriageway. Only last week I came across a pile of fly tipped e-bike tyres, one street away from one of the busier fast food distribution centres… *
On the other hand, there’s now a whole sub-section of society, mostly youngsters, who have enthusiastically adopted the new way of buying & consuming fast food, and who complely depend on the cyclists to deliver the grub, in all weathers to all sorts of destinations, and at all times of day & night.
We are - or can be - proper sniffy about these individuals, many of whom are migrants without much English and the possibility that they’re likely to be here illegally - at the same time, the fast food industry is now a firm part of modern social living and making the sector an absolute fortune.
* duly reported via Fix My Street & now dealt with.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Bonzo Banana
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by Bonzo Banana »

If the kit came with a 250W rating sticker and can be limited to 15.5mph in the settings that is pretty much all that is legally required really. This whole 250W rating is farcical and just dire EU legislation that tries to favour European manufacturers so for a long time it seemed European mid-drive ebikes were delivering close to 1000W of power but Chinese imports were restricted to 250W rating however over time the Chinese got wise to the biased and moronic EU legislation and started calling their 500W and 750W ebikes 250W. They are certified in the EU as 250W but no different to their earlier models in power using exactly the same components. The whole EU certification is complete nonsense it is written as if the controller and motor are always combined in one unit but of course a hub motor is separate to the controller so sticking a 250W rating on a hub motor is absolutely moronic, it is the controller that governs how much power is sent to the hub motor. A direct drive hub motor can work with as little as 200W to maybe 2500W (the very same motor) it is the controller that should have the 250W rating sticker. Ultimately like a lot of legislation you have to work with it however moronic and poorly written it is. A 250W rating sticker and 15.5mph is really want you have to aim for. As far as I know no ebike has prosecuted for having a throttle on it's own in the UK. The ebikes and owners I've read that have been prosecuted have been high wattage, high weight, no pedals etc. I personally don't know of any ebike prosecutions in my local area. Sadly the police don't even bother to go to house burglaries, shoplifting incidents etc nowadays it seems.

Lets not forget the the Department for Transport gave an exception for ebike kits so that they can have working twist and go throttles.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cy ... -approval/
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simonineaston
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by simonineaston »

I say who cares about the bloomin’ electric motor so long as I get my latest trendy made-in-a-portacabin, smashburger!
S
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by Vantage »

Bonzo Banana wrote: 19 Oct 2024, 12:31pm
Lets not forget the the Department for Transport gave an exception for ebike kits so that they can have working twist and go throttles.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cy ... -approval/
So say pedelecs.co.uk.
For the life of me I cannot find any mention of this letter or it's exceptions anywhere on the web. Surely something this important should be easy to find.
Bill


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Bonzo Banana
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Re: I bought 500W 48V Bafang kit - is it legal??

Post by Bonzo Banana »

Vantage wrote: 19 Oct 2024, 2:04pm
Bonzo Banana wrote: 19 Oct 2024, 12:31pm
Lets not forget the the Department for Transport gave an exception for ebike kits so that they can have working twist and go throttles.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cy ... -approval/
So say pedelecs.co.uk.
For the life of me I cannot find any mention of this letter or it's exceptions anywhere on the web. Surely something this important should be easy to find.
Is it that important, twist and go throttle ebikes are still legal to ride today if they were purchased before 2017 and you can still have a throttle on any ebike where it only operates when you pedal plus you can have a throttle that is twist and go I think to 6km anyway on any ebike. I would be very surprised if any policeman has any interest in the throttle of an ebike as the legislation is a can of worms.

As for why you can't see this information elsewhere, it was the pedelecs forum themselves that seeked this clarification and then posted it on their site. I really don't see how throttles are a big deal and anything to worry about. Most ebikes in the world across Asia, Africa, Americas etc use twist and go throttles its the most obvious and logical way to control an ebike giving the rider full control of power when they need it and hugely beneficial for those who are elderly, disabled etc who may have health issues that prevent them being able to pedal all the time or to prevent them being able to pedal hard. You can ghost pedal with a cadence sensor ebike anyway but that creates undesirable delays in assisting which could be dangerous in many situations and many cadence sensor ebikes give full power when you pedal which again is very dangerous. Precise control of power only when you need it is much safer and the default control method for most ebikes in the world.
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