Woosh XF07 waterproofing and hill climbing ability

[rotavator]

I am thinking of buying the Woosh XF07 front hub kit with a downtube battery for one of my bikes, mainly to help me get up steep hills. I have been in touch with them and they have been very helpful so far and it looks as if everything should fit OK. However, my remaining concerns are:

1. How waterproof are the components? Are they up to multi-day touring in all weathers, e.g. if it rains all day? The thought of being stranded in the wilds with a dead e-bike is not appealing.

2. Is this motor capable of climbing short but steep, i.e. >14%, hills or will it be prone to making the front wheel skid or will it just overheat and cut-out?

3. Is it capable of climbing long, e.g. >1000ft of ascent, gentler hills?

I would appreciate advice from people who have actually used this kit in wet weather and on steep and long hills. Alternatively are there more suitable front wheel hub motor kits available?

Thanks in advance.

[UpWrong]

I would expect the front wheel to slip with any front hub drive on 14% gradients.

[stodd]

We've got a Woosh XF07 but on a tandem. We've not had front wheel slip, but that's possibly down to the different weight distribution on a tandem. We have sometimes had rear wheel slip from stamping too hard on the pedals (damp muddy grass slightly uphill) and the motor has pulled us out of trouble. We tend to ride when it's dry where possible, but it has been out is some fairly drenching rain and not showed any sign of problems.

There's no way it would take the tandem with both of us up 14%. When I ride the tandem alone for some reason I'm always surprised how nippy it is; but still not sure about 14% (***). Obviously also depends on your weight and fitness. One trouble is that as it slows it gets less efficient. That's the same with any hub motor, but the XF07 seems to suffer more than most (***). Putting it on full assist and getting up as much speed as possible before a hill helps.

(***) This simulator may help; try playing with the variables, and look at the efficiency curves for different motors. For some motors it gives an idea of temperature too, but not for the XF07.

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html? ... h&grade=10

The motor and Woosh have been great for us, get us up most of the local hills (Winchester) but still needing quite a bit of effort from us. That said I would definitely prefer a beefier motor. We knew that when we bought it over 6 years ago, but there were no appropriate legal alternatives available at the time.

[Stradageek]

My wife has a Woosh motor on the front of her Kettwiesel. She tends to climb in the lowest power so that I can keep up (I'm acoustic). We've tackled long 17% climbs with no problem on dry roads. On wet roads and loose surfaces there can be some wheel spin but the Kett front wheel is very lightly loaded so it was expected. Hill starts on loose surfaces can cause more wheel spin because the motor is driving flat out to try and hit the target speed for the relevant power setting.

The Kett wheels are 20", on a 700C DF bike I can't imagine wheel spin would be much of an issue

[SimonCelsa]

I also have an XF07 front hub motor fitted to a tandem, similar to stodd upthread.

It's been fitted about 6 years and covered almost 3500 miles with about 90 battery charge cycles. I have never run the battery empty, usually charging well before it's depleted.

I tend to avoid usage when heavy rain is forecast (although it has encountered some heavy downpours) and have not really tackled any exceptionally long or steep hills. It has performed well on some short, very steep ramps, with no loss of tracion.

In essence, to get the most out of these conversions you must have some mechanical sympathy. When rain is forecast then perhaps use some cling film over the display unit & carry a plastic bag to cover the battery with a couple of old toe straps. Keep the bike in a dry shed out of the weather. Do not use excessive motor power, use your legs and motor in harmony. I never use the highest level 5, very seldom the level 4, occasionally the level 3 but most commonly the level 2. If you wish to career up and down mountains on maximum power settings during typhoon weather conditions then I very much doubt you'll get much more than a few months and several hundred miles before something gives up. If these are your goals then you'd be better off buying a moped or small 125cc motorcycle.

Think of your newly converted eBike as a donkey and treat it as any humane owner would; don't thrash it or overwork it, and give it a dry stable at the end of each working day. You'll have a dependable partner for many years!

[rotavator]

Well OK, but my main reason for doing this conversion is to help me get up steep and long hills. I don't need electrical assistance on flat roads or gentle hills yet, although that time will come I guess . At present I am very unsure about whether this Woosh XF07 kit will be up to the job or will it just be a heavy white elephant and a waste of money. No doubt it would speed me up on flattish roads and into a headwind but that is not what I am looking for. In other words I don't want a donkey that I have to get off and lead up steep hills, even if it does come with a walk mode!

I know that an e-MTB with a mid motor would be up to hill climbing because I have tried one but I mainly stick to tarmac roads so don't need suspension. I was going to try an Ebco Adventure 5R but the local dealer was no use to put it mildly. Any suggestions for a mid-motor e-bike without suspension but with the eyelets and clearances for mudguards and may be a rack, plus a removable battery (essential as I have no electric in my sheds) would be welcome.

[deliquium]

Well OK, but my main reason for doing this conversion is to help me get up steep and long hills. I don't need electrical assistance on flat roads or gentle hills yet, although that time will come I guess .

Any suggestions for a mid-motor e-bike without suspension but with the eyelets and clearances for mudguards and may be a rack, plus a removable battery (essential as I have no electric in my sheds) would be welcome.

That was how I started out on my e-Bike journey - help on the hills and frequent wind here in this particualr part of North Wales. I bought a Boardman HYB 8.9E with Fazua mid drive motor and a removable 250W battery, concealed in the downtube - it rides very much like a normal bike at ~15.5kg in it's 'bare' state. Fitted a rear rack, mudguards, lights and essential Brooks B17 + 1970's Carradice Nelson Longflap. Runs on 35mm tyres.

It's been a very positive experience and has been faultless. Never ridden for more than an hour in heavy rain, but was fine with that. The motor is very very quiet, unlike a lot other mid engined e-bikes. Even went to the expense of buying a second battery (£500!), so I could avoid 'range anxiety' - according to my records, managed 44 Welsh miles with 33% remaining - so perhaps 100 miles achievable with 2 batteries?. It easily fits into the Nelson.

I see you too are in North Wales - if you like we could meet up somewhere convenient - you'd be welcome to ride it up a few hills and see of it's the kind of thing that might suit? I may also be willing to sell it, as I've added German made Bosch motored panzer wagons to the stable and tend to use them more now due to having become a wimp in old age and addicted to the ride on 55mm tyres But the offer is mainly for you to try the Boardman - as you might not like it and you could discount that particular solution? It's a 48cm size M.

[rotavator]

Deilquium: Thanks, I will send you pm.

[bikes4two]

....................

So did you go for the XF07 kit then? If you're still undecided about the suitability, do you know someone with a Cytronex or Swytch Bike conversion? The front hub motors in those kits are similar in performance to the XF07 and should give you a reasonable idea about getting up 14% hills and whether wheel spin might be a problem.

The GREAT advantage of a kit conversion is that the individual elements of the whole are easily obtainable at reasonable cost. If you go 'proprietary' and you hit a problem, then make sure the reinforcements on your wallet are up to the task!

[rotavator]

So did you go for the XF07 kit then? If you're still undecided about the suitability, do you know someone with a Cytronex or Swytch Bike conversion? The front hub motors in those kits are similar in performance to the XF07 and should give you a reasonable idea about getting up 14% hills and whether wheel spin might be a problem.

The GREAT advantage of a kit conversion is that the individual elements of the whole are easily obtainable at reasonable cost. If you go 'proprietary' and you hit a problem, then make sure the reinforcements on your wallet are up to the task!

I am waiting for a piece of the wiring loom to come back into stock before I submit my order. I think I will have to manage without a throttle because of lack of space on the handle bars but I hope that I don't regret it. I think this kit should be sufficient to keep up on climbs with the rest of the U3A folks, all of whom ride bespoke e-bikes. However, I suspect that it will not be capable of climbing steep hills and that I would need either an e-MTB or an uber-tourer/SUV with a high torque mid motor for this task but they are expensive, heavy and have proprietary parts as you say. The XF-07 also comes with a big removable battery which should be sufficient for my longest day rides (~60 miles) if I watch the bars.

[Biospace]

Have you tried calling Woosh? I've heard you get through to someone helpful and knowledgeable in Britain and although they're very likely to mention the length of a piece of string, it's possible there will be some useful information. For example, hub motors may be had with different gearing ratios.

Several years ago I tried out a few electric bikes through curiosity and found the hub motor, front drive bike was equally as good as the rear drive ones (one hub motor, the other located at the bb and driving through the bike's gears).

Wheelslip, instability and poor steering feel were nowhere to be found, perhaps the torque sensor rather than cadence sensing helped? If anything, I preferred front drive - the combined torque of motor + self had to be watched through corners when it was anything other than dry with the combined power fed to the rear wheel.

edited for clarity

[rotavator]

I have been in touch by email and I have been satisfied by their responses so I am just waiting for a missing piece of the wiring loom to come back into stock.

[Jodel]

I'm not trying to throw a spanner in the works, but are you absolutely set on having a front wheel motor? The reason I mention this is that I understand from several sources that a front motor can have more of an adverse impact on handling than a rear motor. I haven't ridden a front motor though, so just commenting for your info.

There are plus & minus points for all motor types whether mid-drive / front hub / rear hub. I felt that rear hub drive was a pretty good compromise.

I have two Woosh hub kits. I use their DWG22C on my tandem and also on a solo bike. Even on the tandem with an all-up weight of about 165Kg, we've only ever decided to lighten the load on a gradient over 20% - the stoker dismounted and I rode up to the top. On my solo bike, the DWG22C just romps up any hill I've encountered.

Hub motors don't like toiling away at low speed / high power so we use a self-imposed limit of about 8mph for continuous climbing and around 5-6 mph for shorter sharp climbs. The tandem has covered about 5,000 (fair weather) miles with this motor and it has been faultless. On the solo with the same power settings, climbing speed is a fair bit faster - usually about 12 mph.

Another point to consider is whether you want speed control or current control from your motor - our tandem is speed controlled and I've very recently swapped my solo over to current control. There are plus and minus points to each type, but as a sweeping generalisation I'd say speed control suits the tandem and current control gives a more 'natural' feeling on a solo.

We use our motor to help with hills / headwinds rather than as an 'electric motorcycle' and we put in a reasonable effort ourselves. Over mixed terrain, using mostly power Level 2, we can easily cover 40 miles on the tandem with a 48 volt 12 Ah battery. We've still had plenty of 'oomph' left after a 50 mile trip too. To give you some perspective, we're both in our sixties and I have nothing like the fitness or strength I had as a youngster, but we still manage to pootle along a lot of the time above the motor assist speed, so we're not using any battery power.

I hope you enjoy what ever solution you choose, Woosh are a good supplier and will look after you.

[rotavator]

I'm not trying to throw a spanner in the works, but are you absolutely set on having a front wheel motor?

Yes, the bike that I am going to convert is a Thorn (so think heavy and steel!) with a Rohloff hub which does not get much use so it seems like the best candidate from my fleet for conversion. A rear hub motor is out obviously and a mid/BB motor would foul the eccentric BB adjustment. I have two lightish weight bikes but I want to keep them as they are for less hilly routes.

[Jodel]

Rotavator, it sounds like you have the ideal donor bike for a front wheel conversion. I think mid-drive can be fitted with a Rohloff, but it can take a fair bit of fettling because of the eccentric BB - as you have pointed out.

Steel forks (rather than alloy / carbon) are probably the best and strongest material for front hub drive. Even so, I'd suggest you consider fitting a torque arm(s) for added safety.

My bikes have alloy frames and I fitted torque arms to both of them as the DWG22C motor is quite hefty and power considerations aside, I was conscious of the additional inertial shock loading when riding on our pock-marked tarmac!

I'll happily bet you'll use the Thorn a lot more when you have added the electric assist.