What's the Deal With Original Windows?

[Potato_Head]

I'm about to renovate my 1900 (no idea what style) home and my original plan was to replace all of the old windows. They're single pane and some of the wood frames are falling apart. I thought I would rather have a more modern window for both better looks and energy efficiency. But everyone seems to want to keep the original windows. Why? What's the big deal?
We had a quote from https://surreysashwindowspecialist.co.uk/ to restore them and it was eye watering.

[Audax67]

I'd go for functionality, comfort and economy. He who pays the piper...

[pwa]

I too would put practicality and comfort before the idea of conserving a look. But if your home isn't subject to special restrictions (conservation area or listed status) you might want to try to keep as much of the original look as you can, but with a new double glazed variant. For example, a member of my family has an old terraced cottage with UPVC frame sash windows. It sounds a bit naff to me when I say it, but they do look right at a glance. They give the same impression as original wood frame sash windows, but with double glazing and no wood to rot.

[rjb]

Modern replacement double glazed windows come in a myriad of styles to achieve period appearances. Houses near us were built in 1996, some with sash windows. Almost everyone has replaced their rotten wooden framed double glazed windows with PVC in the same style. Some have glazing bars on the inside only which makes external cleaning easier without compromising appearance's. Some have changed the frame colour too.
It may be worth investing in triple glazing.

[simonineaston]

I'm about to renovate my 1900 (no idea what style) home and my original plan was to replace all of the old windows. They're single pane and some of the wood frames are falling apart. I thought I would rather have a more modern window for both better looks and energy efficiency. But everyone seems to want to keep the original windows. Why? What's the big deal?
We had a quote from https://surreysashwindowspecialist.co.uk/ to restore them and it was eye watering.

I lived in a mid-terrace 2-up, 2-down for fifteen years and did a lot of work on it. A lot depends on what you want from the project. For example, I spent some energy investigating the original building construction methods and decided I would enjoy recreating lime-based mortars to use when I repaired the brickwork.
Eventually it dawned on me that applying modern materials & methods has consequences. Specifically in terms of ventilation and heating. A mixture of modern uPVC, double glazed windows, giving higher levels of weather sealing & draft exclusion, added to modern tech like showers & washingmachines results in much higher levels of moisture held on air that stays put inside the building, unless deliberately extracted. Combine that with the large areas of cold walls resulting from single-course brick construction, lacking insulation and you raise the likelihood of damp & its unpleasant sibling, mould.
You can take steps to ameliorate the problem, of course and the home I’m referring to was cosy, dry and entirely mould-free, once I‘d worked out what worked & what didn't.
One way to promote air flow is to eshew super-sealed uPVC window frames. Another is to unblock all the fire places…
(none of the above really addresses the op’s questions, however I quite enjoyed typing it…)

[853]

I'm about to renovate my 1900 (no idea what style) home and my original plan was to replace all of the old windows. They're single pane and some of the wood frames are falling apart. I thought I would rather have a more modern window for both better looks and energy efficiency. But everyone seems to want to keep the original windows. Why? What's the big deal?
We had a quote from https://surreysashwindowspecialist.co.uk/ to restore them and it was eye watering.

I lived in a mid-terrace 2-up, 2-down for fifteen years and did a lot of work on it. A lot depends on what you want from the project. For example, I spent some energy investigating the original building construction methods and decided I would enjoy recreating lime-based mortars to use when I repaired the brickwork.
Eventually it dawned on me that applying modern materials & methods has consequences. Specifically in terms of ventilation and heating. A mixture of modern uPVC, double glazed windows, giving higher levels of weather sealing & draft exclusion, added to modern tech like showers & washingmachines results in much higher levels of moisture held on air that stays put inside the building, unless deliberately extracted. Combine that with the large areas of cold walls resulting from single-course brick construction, lacking insulation and you raise the likelihood of damp & its unpleasant sibling, mould.
You can take steps to ameliorate the problem, of course and the home I’m referring to was cosy, dry and entirely mould-free, once I‘d worked out what worked & what didn't.
One way to promote air flow is to eshew super-sealed uPVC window frames. Another is to unblock all the fire places…
(none of the above really addresses the op’s questions, however I quite enjoyed typing it…)

All good points, that you probably learnt the hard way, and worth raising about mixing "materials & methods" from two very different eras.

In recent years (I believe it was 2022) the regulations on windows changed and new ones have to have trickle vents. Another thing worth considering is a de-humidifier, which are now quite cheap and effective.

[axel_knutt]

I repaired all my rotten softwood windows, but it is time consuming: a fortnight or more per window. The garage was knee-deep in wood shavings when I made a new sill for the back bedroom window using a Record No.4. I made two complete new windows for the garage.

[tim-b]

Assuming that you're not restricted by Conservation Area or Listed status then you should be free to do what you want.

Your local council can give you guidance on what that freedom looks like. You have to bear in mind that windows are subject to Building Regs and that the installer will submit a compliance cert to the council, so you have to be sure before ordering.

Like-for-like repairs are free of building regs, but by the time you've added double-glazing it's getting pricey

Have a look around, see what others have done and get advice from a local installer. You can get so-called Heritage UPVC that offers the best of both worlds and is coloured inside and out to taste, but it's more costly https://www.sehbac.com/windows/heritage

Modern windows aren't a huge problem, modern plasters, cement-based renders, etc. can turn an older property into a damp problem

[geocycle]

We had double glazed wooden sashes fitted and retained as much of the original timber surrounds as possible. This was a few years ago now. Just having properly fitting sashes made a huge difference. It worked very well and wasn’t that bad price wise but we are in the north! The only thing I missed was the old slightly rippled glass.

[axel_knutt]

You can get so-called Heritage UPVC that offers the best of both worlds and is coloured inside and out to taste, but it's more costly https://www.sehbac.com/windows/heritage

I don't know how they managed to get permission to put UPVC in a thatched cottage, a guy at work who lived in a thatched cottage wasn't even allowed to swap softwood for hardwood.

[tim-b]

You can get so-called Heritage UPVC that offers the best of both worlds and is coloured inside and out to taste, but it's more costly https://www.sehbac.com/windows/heritage

I don't know how they managed to get permission to put UPVC in a thatched cottage, a guy at work who lived in a thatched cottage wasn't even allowed to swap softwood for hardwood.

Only 75% of thatched buildings are listed, so it might not be protected in that way at all

"Listed buildings can be altered, extended and sometimes even demolished within government planning guidance." https://www.thatchadvicecentre.co.uk/th ... -buildings

[plancashire]

...

Eventually it dawned on me that applying modern materials & methods has consequences. Specifically in terms of ventilation and heating. A mixture of modern uPVC, double glazed windows, giving higher levels of weather sealing & draft exclusion, added to modern tech like showers & washingmachines results in much higher levels of moisture held on air that stays put inside the building, unless deliberately extracted. Combine that with the large areas of cold walls resulting from single-course brick construction, lacking insulation and you raise the likelihood of damp & its unpleasant sibling, mould.
You can take steps to ameliorate the problem, of course and the home I’m referring to was cosy, dry and entirely mould-free, once I‘d worked out what worked & what didn't.
One way to promote air flow is to eshew super-sealed uPVC window frames. Another is to unblock all the fire places…
(none of the above really addresses the op’s questions, however I quite enjoyed typing it…)

All good points, that you probably learnt the hard way, and worth raising about mixing "materials & methods" from two very different eras.

In recent years (I believe it was 2022) the regulations on windows changed and new ones have to have trickle vents. Another thing worth considering is a de-humidifier, which are now quite cheap and effective.
[/quote]

Trickle vents do not exist in Germany. The windows seal well with adjustable locking points around the frame.

Everyone here knows what to do about damp: forced ventilation at least once a day. Early in the morning when the outside air is cold and the water has condensed out as dew you open all the windows wide and change all the air in the house as fast as possible. The warm humid air is replaced by colder air which contains less moisture. The walls and furniture barely cool down in the short time. After you close the windows they warm up the fresh cool air quickly and the result is warm dry air. You can buy a humidity meter to see when you need to do this and how effective it is. One with a dew point indicator is especially useful. A 10-20% reduction in relative humidity is easily achievable.

Why do it this way? You lose far less heat from the house than by leaving a window open, having a trickle vent, or suffering traditional leaky British windows. Many new replacement windows I have seen in Britain do not seal properly because they do not have adjustable locking points around the frame. They open outwards and have sliders that prevent proper compression of the rubber seals. British houses leak heat the fastest in Europe (reference: Europe’s energy crisis in data: Which countries have the best and worst insulated homes?).

My sister in Britain just replaced many old windows with triple-glazed aluminum-faced wood ones. The increase in comfort is remarkable.

The only way to deal with single-skin wall construction is cladding, internal insulation or demolition. Or you just wear lots of jerseys and freeze.

[al_yrpal]

The only way to deal with single-skin wall construction is cladding, internal insulation or demolition. Or you just wear lots of jerseys and freeze.

Before you do that measure the thickness. In my house iexternal walls are 350mm solid brick. This has an insulation factor only a tiny shade worse than a brick and block cavity wall. Thus hardly worth going to the expense and disruption of internal cladding especially as large sections are further enhanced with thick fireplaces and pillars.

Al

[pwa]

The only way to deal with single-skin wall construction is cladding, internal insulation or demolition. Or you just wear lots of jerseys and freeze.

Before you do that measure the thickness. In my house iexternal walls are 350mm solid brick. This has an insulation factor only a tiny shade worse than a brick and block cavity wall. Thus hardly worth going to the expense and disruption of internal cladding especially as large sections are further enhanced with thick fireplaces and pillars.

Al

Yes, wall thickness is another contributor to insulation.

[plancashire]

The only way to deal with single-skin wall construction is cladding, internal insulation or demolition. Or you just wear lots of jerseys and freeze.

Before you do that measure the thickness. In my house iexternal walls are 350mm solid brick. This has an insulation factor only a tiny shade worse than a brick and block cavity wall. Thus hardly worth going to the expense and disruption of internal cladding especially as large sections are further enhanced with thick fireplaces and pillars.

Al

Yes, wall thickness is another contributor to insulation.

Are you sure it is important? Insulation is much more significant. Adding insulation between the layers of a brick and block cavity wall is very effective. See U-values.