Canti power frustrations!

[djnotts]

All anyone needs to know on this topic is:

"At the end of the day, you will get miles better braking by using full size Vee brakes even if you have to buy new drop bar vee levers..."

Cantis can be just about acceptable with flat bars, with drops not.

[Chris Jeggo]

All anyone needs to know on this topic is:

"At the end of the day, you will get miles better braking by using full size Vee brakes even if you have to buy new drop bar vee levers..."

Cantis can be just about acceptable with flat bars, with drops not.

The Tektro cantis on my Hewitt Cheviot (which has drops with STI's) have been entirely satisfactory for 30,000 miles over 14 years, including tours of the Alps, Pyrenees, etc.

[Brucey]

I think with this setup I could have done with going back to the headset mounted cable hanger.

Could do with raising the straddle too.

Any suggestions for a narrower straddle yoke?

if you have a 1 inch steerer an uphanger is much to be preferred.

You could set the straddle even lower than that, but in any event you probably should have something between the straddle and the tyre, just in case the main cable fails.

Almost any yoke is likely to be narrower than the one you have. Perhaps you could get a 'M'-system or unit link straddle wire; this would be safer, amongst other things.It would also take away another variable when setting them up. Some folk prize the versatility and adjustability of cantis, but then again, some folk prefer 'v' brakes for the opposite reasons; there are probably fewer ways of degrading their performance; whereas it is much easier to make a mistake with most cantis.

[hamster]

- I've not used 287E levers, but I am sceptical that they are better than BR R600 levers.

Yes they definitely are! The proviso of course is that they are matched to the right type of brake on cable pull. The R600 is an older type that pulls less cable.

V-levers pull even more, although the 287V is a bit on the marginal side compared to the Tektro / Cane Creek ones.

[Brucey]

....Cantis can be just about acceptable with flat bars, with drops not.

there speaks someone who has presumably never used decent cantis and certainly hasn't tried my new straddle design. The only real difference in the brake types is the means of brake application. I have added canti bosses to a number of frames and I am pleased to say I have never used the inferior 'modern' boss spacing.

[EdT]

I seem to remember standing a fully laden cantilever equipped touring bike with dropped bars on its nose, braking with enough force to deform the steerer tube.

[531colin]

I seem to remember standing a fully laden cantilever equipped touring bike with dropped bars on its nose, braking with enough force to deform the steerer tube.

More power than that is difficult to use.

[Cyclothesist]

Not all cantis are equal. The Kore cantis on my old (2010 version) Jake were rubbish despite a good low straddle cable. They were combined with ST4500 brifters. I changed them for Tektro RX5 mini Vs. That improved stopping power immensely but rim clearance is minimal within the working range and they need regular adjustment to maintain braking power. I still have that bike and wonder if there's a current model set of cantis that would be better than the mini Vs.

[Rhothgar]

I suspect that the cantilever boss spacing on your fork is the older narrower standard (around 60mm-65mm or so), not the wider standard of ~75mm or more that replaced it when V brakes became common.

Modern V brakes, mini Vs and modern cantilevers are designed for the wider boss spacing, and may not work well on narrow spaced bosses. The threaded mount brake blocks/cartridges of V brakes etc. have only limited scope to accommodate variation in the boss spacing by swapping the positions of thin and thick CPS washers.

The CX50 (and discontinued CX70) brakes are unusual in that they are designed to fit a wide range of boss spacings by using one of three different length spacers and bolts, diagram here - https://www.sjscycles.com/Drawings/Shim ... ch_Doc.pdf and chart showing the various boss spacing, rim width and spacer combinations on page 17 here - https://si.shimano.com/en/pdfs/dm/RCBR0 ... 00-ENG.pdf.

Although CX50 brakes are still available, what many retailers are selling is a package containing only one or two of the three different sized spacers and bolts, and a lot of them do not even make it clear on their website if only one or two sizes are included. The CX50 also uses a moulded pad specific to that brake model (whereas the CX70 came with cartridge holders which take the universal Shimano standard road pattern inserts), although we have discussed the possibility that other brand cartridge holders might fit here - viewtopic.php?t=83367.

If the boss spacing of your fork is narrow, I would not buy any modern brake, including a mini V, until I was confident it would work with that boss spacing and whatever the rim width is, i.e. I would ideally want confirmation from someone on the forum who had that brake fitted to narrow spaced bosses. The exception to that would be a CX50 with small spacers/bolts, but personally I would not want to be locked into using the Shimano moulded pads for that brake. The alternative would be to buy a used 1980s/90s non-low profile cantilever brake designed for the narrower spacing.

Finally,

- SLR cable is not compressionless
- 287V levers are designed for full size V brakes, and are not a good design at that.
- I've not used 287E levers, but I am sceptical that they are better than BR R600 levers.
- Fork crown mounted cable hangers will generally reduce judder compared with headset mounted hangers

I think you may have just swayed me to bite the bullet and fit the Deore MC70's I have...

I dreamed of listing them on Ebay for a lot of money in the original box!

With the CX50's, I actually saw the graphing they have for the difference ferrule lengths they have but was frustrated to see that there appeared to be no adjustment mentioned for toe. Not too worried about the ferrule lengths as if a certain length wasn't included, I would get one turned up on a lathe.

I meant to measure the distance between the bosses today but ran out of time. I suspect you are right. They probably will be narrow on a 1997 frame.

So if I reading you correctly, the MC70's may well work well with the modern BL-R400's?

EDIT: I can see how they toe-in now from the exploded diagram! Thank you.

[Rhothgar]

I think with this setup I could have done with going back to the headset mounted cable hanger.

Could do with raising the straddle too.

Any suggestions for a narrower straddle yoke?

if you have a 1 inch steerer an uphanger is much to be preferred.

You could set the straddle even lower than that, but in any event you probably should have something between the straddle and the tyre, just in case the main cable fails.

Almost any yoke is likely to be narrower than the one you have. Perhaps you could get a 'M'-system or unit link straddle wire; this would be safer, amongst other things.It would also take away another variable when setting them up. Some folk prize the versatility and adjustability of cantis, but then again, some folk prefer 'v' brakes for the opposite reasons; there are probably fewer ways of degrading their performance; whereas it is much easier to make a mistake with most cantis.

Understood.

My problem is what length of unit link cable should I actually get? The SI doc states 72/83 from memory but that would set arms in a vertical position and is technically only for use with a flat bar lever as recommended by Shimano in that SI doc.

I'm in two minds now what to do. Should I buy a load of different lengths unit links or simply throw on the brand new MC70's I have?

My partner's bike has Dia Compe so I might just purloin the Dia Compe yoke off her bike for now and see what effect that has although my MC70 kit probably should have some of the narrow link types.

[531colin]

I can’t picture MC70… give us a photo or a link.
Basically, if you can set them up as mid-profile they should be OK.
But you have had your low profile cantis set up as mid profile ( picture with the pads set all the way in on the studs) I think you got squeal judder and grabby brakes, in some way the opposite to no brakes at all which you started out with. Why not try setting those existing brakes half way between those two setups?
I can’t emphasise too much it’s the setup that makes the difference… you could try different brakes till hell freezes, if they aren’t set up to advantage they won’t work.

[531colin]

Not all cantis are equal. The Kore cantis on my old (2010 version) Jake were rubbish despite a good low straddle cable. They were combined with ST4500 brifters. I changed them for Tektro RX5 mini Vs. That improved stopping power immensely but rim clearance is minimal within the working range and they need regular adjustment to maintain braking power. I still have that bike and wonder if there's a current model set of cantis that would be better than the mini Vs.

Tha most recent cantis to be good straight out of the box were CX70. CX 50 are still available but need work to accept aftermarket pads, if I remember right. There were many other cantis you could set mid profile, once you realise that all you need to do is set up mid profile with low straddle the world suddenly becomes a less confusing place….2 examples of mine on previous page.
Have a look at your existing mini vees. If there is a lot of lost motion due to arm flex as you squeeze the levers harder, you could get less lost motion with RX6 because the arms are stiff, and that’s despite longer arms.

[scragend]

Not all cantis are equal. The Kore cantis on my old (2010 version) Jake were rubbish despite a good low straddle cable. They were combined with ST4500 brifters. I changed them for Tektro RX5 mini Vs. That improved stopping power immensely but rim clearance is minimal within the working range and they need regular adjustment to maintain braking power. I still have that bike and wonder if there's a current model set of cantis that would be better than the mini Vs.

I'm in a similar position with my tourer. I bought it second hand (but in pretty much perfect condition) and it had cantis fitted. I can't remember what sort they were, but squeezing the brake levers felt like nothing more than just a polite request to the bike to slow down a little in its own time.

I changed them for mini-Vs and the bike stops fine now but I do have to run them very close to the rim.

[Norman H]

BR-CX70/50 cantilevers are compatible with NSSLR levers. Its also possible to fit road pattern cartridge brake shoes to BR-CX50 brakes by using the original fixing bolts and spacers from the BR-CX50 moulded brake blocks.

[531colin]

BR-CX70/50 cantilevers are compatible with NSSLR levers. Its also possible to fit road pattern cartridge brake shoes to BR-CX50 brakes by using the original fixing bolts and spacers from the BR-CX50 moulded brake blocks.

Good information, thank you for that