BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
10
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
13
16%
are quiet and smooth
10
12%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
11
13%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
35
42%
 
Total votes: 83

Biospace
Posts: 2985
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

sjs wrote: 3 Dec 2024, 4:56pm.
Our Tesla was a 2020 Model 3 LR...
Thanks for that. It confirms what I've noted through anecdotal evidence on the ground, rather than those who've suggested the opposite, quoted data in the form of Which and others, while accusing those who mention the less positive aspects of BEVs being a FUD spreader.

Obviously there are more content owners than not, many of them have deep levels of brand loyalty and a passion for the integrity of some of the engineering, but I have consistently been aware of the sorts of problems you'd expect with a car maker which only introduced its own product in 2012 (having sold a modified Lotus since 2008).

That said, lots of what I do know about the cars is impressive. I can't tell for sure if all these niggles are being sorted through but I do know a lot has been learned by the company with multiple improvements made, often retrospectively. I can't help but harbour a sneaking feeling that a Model S with high mileage could be an absurdly good purchase, if the battery condition was good.
wheelyhappy99
Posts: 296
Joined: 5 Jul 2020, 11:12am

Re: BEVs

Post by wheelyhappy99 »

I’ve just been introduced to Zap Map and it all seems rather clever to me, maybe too clever.
Zapmap has useful information about BEVs and charging, though the modt useful function is their map showing the location of public charging points for pretty much all suppliers, how many devices there are, claimed charging rates, cost, payment methods and crucially what seems to be real time information on whether each device is working and in use or available. Invaluable in my view. Which part of this app is 'too clever' please?
Price competition between suppliers on Zap Map doesn’t seem to be there, and then there’s several models of fuel purchase. What I’m seeing is smoke ‘n’ mirrors intended to rip the customer off, alternatively there are charge point owners trying to claw back installation costs, running costs and make a profit.
Zapmap simply reports the existing infrastructure. Pricing is determined by the various suppliers. Yes, there are still several models of energy purchase. Early charging points often required and RFID card from the supplier or charged less per kWh if users had some sort of membership. I haven't seen any newly installed chargers that don't accept a simple contactless bank card payment. Oh, and the optional Zapmap payment account allows you to pay on a lot of older devices that don't have contactless. It looks like a technology and market maturing rather than smoke and mirrors. If charging point owners can't recover their capital costs, which are likely very significant for an array of rapid chargers, as well as energy costs and a return,how likely is it that they will build them?
Some folk do make all this (^) work for them, and work well too, BUT there are at least two different types of BEV user. If you have home charging and a big battery then the higher costs of public charging are rarely seen, but if you’re reliant on public charging then it appears to be: time consuming, inconvenient and not cheap. So, if you can’t home charge then, at least until public charging becomes much cheaper, you’re likely better off staying with fossil fuels - and even then electric charging will still be a bit of a drag.
Yes, the people who face a really big disincentive to BEVs are those who can't charge at home. Which is why I've been pressing our useless county council to implement on street charging provision at or near domestic tariffs. Lighting columns are almost always on unmetered supplies, with a fixed payment to the utility company based on cheap night time pricing. Just what's needed for BEVs. Reading has lots of older back streets with charging points on street light columns. As I have posted before, 10,000 miles charged at home costs me under £200. So for fortunate people like me who can charge at home the fact that service areas and McDonalds prices are higher per mile than petrol is pretty insignificant. I only need to charge up enough to complete a long journey and get home.
Carlton green
Posts: 4496
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

wheelyhappy99 wrote: 3 Dec 2024, 11:49pm Yes, the people who face a really big disincentive to BEVs are those who can't charge at home. Which is why I've been pressing our useless county council to implement on street charging provision at or near domestic tariffs. Lighting columns are almost always on unmetered supplies, with a fixed payment to the utility company based on cheap night time pricing. Just what's needed for BEVs. Reading has lots of older back streets with charging points on street light columns. As I have posted before, 10,000 miles charged at home costs me under £200. So for fortunate people like me who can charge at home the fact that service areas and McDonalds prices are higher per mile than petrol is pretty insignificant. I only need to charge up enough to complete a long journey and get home.
An interesting response above, thank you. (Edit. A bit of a search through your earlier posts gives good data too). It would have been good though to reference the originator of the text that you responded to.

Whether intentional or not what I’ve seen is smoke and mirrors; in all types of commerce companies try to confuse the customer but what’s really frustrating to me is that BEV ‘converts’ too often seem to glaze over any down sides (of BEV’s) and praise the good stuff. In nearly any decision making process one needs to know (virtually) all of the facts and not just (seemingly) cherry picked ones.

10,000 miles for £200 seems like incredible value to me, certainly a better ratio than the (roughly) 300 miles of additional range that I get for £40 of petrol - but it’s nice to have a range of nearly 400 miles. I wonder though what 10,000 miles at 50p per KWh would cost? My estimate for that mileage in a BEV is £1250 (and the 50p rate is around what’s typical for local in street charging), interestingly - though I must check my maths again - that’s about what the petrol would cost me for a similar mileage ((40/300)x10,000 = 1333). These days my annual mileage is relatively low, maybe 5000 miles per year, so there’s not that much to save on my fuel bills - and don’t forget that the (home sourced) electricity still has to be paid for too. (To my estimate, with standard domestic rate electricity and 5000 miles per year, I’d save circa £330 a year on fuel charges - nice, but see below.)

Doing a bit more quick maths a car that does 4 miles per KWh and is charged at the standard domestic rate (not off-peak) of 25p per KWh would cost (circa) £625 for those 10,000 miles. That’s more than the £200 headline price, the reduction is due to you using an off-peak tariff (Octopus, I think), but it’s still a nice saving - it’s effectively ‘half price petrol’, but see the next paragraph :( . If you have an off-peak tariff then electricity used in other parts of the day is charged at a higher tariff than, would be the case, if you only used the standard tariff for the whole of the day (ie. The cost of other usage rises).
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-price-cap

Just talking money; I’d say that even the best savings on fuel costs (eg. above, about £1000 per 10,000 miles) were relatively unimportant compared to: the depreciation, the risks (of getting either a lemon or something that’s otherwise a poor buy), and the costs of changing a vehicle. That (those) and that the fuel cost savings - if any - are very much dependant on personal circumstances and usage.

Whilst talking about money, don’t forget that external (fitted to your house) BEV charging points cost money too; maybe budget £1500 and hope for some change. Perhaps sticking to a granny charger (13 amp plug and existing socket), at least to start with, makes sense; granny chargers put range on your car at the rate of circa 12 mph and that could be all the home charging rate needed. I’m also concerned about higher insurance premiums too, ‘cause nearly all the electric cars that I’ve found have been in high insurance groups.

IMHO If the Government is serious about BEV’s then it should be focusing its resources on lowering the cost of public charging and not wasting funds on benefit in kind tax relief as applied to luxurious BEV’s (cap such relief and limit relief to BEV’s that are both plain and small).
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
UpWrong
Posts: 2761
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

Carlton green wrote: 4 Dec 2024, 9:41am IMHO If the Government is serious about BEV’s then it should be focusing its resources on lowering the cost of public charging and not wasting funds on benefit in kind tax relief as applied to luxurious BEV’s (cap such relief and limit relief to BEV’s that are both plain and small).
Amen to that. BIK tax relief on car leasing benefits those in good stable jobs. I've not been eligible because I've been working fixed term contracts of less than 3 years.
UpWrong
Posts: 2761
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

The new Vauxhall Frontera Electric. Same price as the petrol hybrid version, £23.5K. Probably a good option if you need the load space.
UpWrong
Posts: 2761
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

An interesting statistic, the electric version of the Frontera is only 170 Kg heavier than the petrol hybrid version.
Carlton green
Posts: 4496
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

https://ev-database.org/uk/compare/newe ... :number=10

An interesting BEV database.

I’d have thought that the Frontera and its stablemates are pretty much on target to be a success.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4867
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: BEVs

Post by PDQ Mobile »

A "utility" vehicle needs, for me at least a towbar facility.
And the ability to pull a trailer of say 7/8/900 kilos gross weight.
It looks as if there is some provision (back bumper gap) in the video but I can find no reference to towing anywhere in the Frontera spec/ bumf.
Anyone know?
Carlton green
Posts: 4496
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 6 Dec 2024, 11:35am A "utility" vehicle needs, for me at least a towbar facility.
And the ability to pull a trailer of say 7/8/900 kilos gross weight.
It looks as if there is some provision (back bumper gap) in the video but I can find no reference to towing anywhere in the Frontera spec/ bumf.
Anyone know?
It’s here, towards the end of the page, under dimensions and weight: https://ev-database.org/uk/car/2238/Vau ... era-44-kWh
350 Kg, either braked or un-braked.
Utility means different things to different people, and then there’s the marketing guys …
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4867
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: BEVs

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Carlton green wrote: 6 Dec 2024, 1:46pm
PDQ Mobile wrote: 6 Dec 2024, 11:35am A "utility" vehicle needs, for me at least a towbar facility.
And the ability to pull a trailer of say 7/8/900 kilos gross weight.
It looks as if there is some provision (back bumper gap) in the video but I can find no reference to towing anywhere in the Frontera spec/ bumf.
Anyone know?
It’s here, towards the end of the page, under dimensions and weight: https://ev-database.org/uk/car/2238/Vau ... era-44-kWh
350 Kg, either braked or un-braked.
Utility means different things to different people, and then there’s the marketing guys …
Thank you for that.

It has a inner payload of over 500kg which is pretty good.
The tow-ball nose weight is good which suggests strength in those areas.
350kg total trailer weight is low though - i guess motor rated power not considered adequate for heavier stuff- hence "braked or unbraked".
It's weight would make it a decent stable puller I guess.
UpWrong
Posts: 2761
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

Review of 3 BEVs which (with discounts) can be bought for under £25K.

Hopefully we'll soon have Renault 5 vs Hyundai Inster reviews similarly.
UpWrong
Posts: 2761
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

A rather good explanation of why the Chinese are becoming dominant in EV production:
Carlton green
Posts: 4496
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Yep, as usual, the UK has no long term plans in place whereas China has. The Chinese dominate battery manufacture and we let them do so. Daft, you couldn’t make it up. The last lot of clowns have gone but what the incoming set will do is anyone’s guess. Tariffs are a way forward but the UK customer pays more for the product that they want and the government gets a windfall (rewarding incompetence).

Electrification to reduce CO2 emissions is sensible, but another way would be to curb the mileage that the public does and to demand that new cars did 60 mpg.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
UpWrong
Posts: 2761
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

Carlton green wrote: 7 Dec 2024, 6:10pm Yep, as usual, the UK has no long term plans in place whereas China has. The Chinese dominate battery manufacture and we let them do so. Daft, you couldn’t make it up. The last lot of clowns have gone but what the incoming set will do is anyone’s guess. Tariffs are a way forward but the UK customer pays more for the product that they want and the government gets a windfall (rewarding incompetence).

Electrification to reduce CO2 emissions is sensible, but another way would be to curb the mileage that the public does and to demand that new cars did 60 mpg.
Yep, the UK govt could have incentivised small, economical cars and reduced the national speed limit to 60 mph to reduce emissions.I presume we have a 10% tariff on Chinese cars but haven't participated in the EUs additional countervailing duties.

It occurs to me that the only European maker with good prospects is Renault who have done well from the French govt's consumer subsidies for BEV purchases.The Germans had this too but it's now ended, though it still continues in France.
Jules59
Posts: 478
Joined: 16 Jan 2019, 2:34pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jules59 »

We do appear to be on the edge of a motor industry crisis; caused by the market for BEVs drying up (the market being those who can afford one privately or benefit from the temporary tax incentives or drive very hige mileages), Gov policy penalising manufacturers if they dont reach the increasing % targets and manufacturers realising they can make more profit from selling a small number of very expensive cars than they can from lots of cheaper ones.

The huge depreciation (compounded by the huge initial price) that we are seeing in the value of many BEVs must surely put off any sensible private buyer, as it outweighs any possible savings in the cost of fuel for an average driver.

I suppose that will make secondhand BEVs very cheap. Maybe that will encourage people to just buy an older BEV (say 6 year old) and change it every year or so when the inevitable losses of car ownership are sustainable.

I had a BEV charger installed (FOC) when I had a solar panels and battery installed a few mnonths ago. I am increasingly uncertain as to whether to go for a BEV. For me, the £s just dont add up compared with the two old ICE cars we have. I shall probably stick with them for now and maybe plump for a Plug-In HEV if one of them needs to go all of a sudden (they would be written off by insurers even for minor damage).
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