Electronic shifting - an essay

[rareposter]

I know a couple of women of a certain age, who have gone over to electronic shifting due to arthritis or lack of hand strength to use mechanical shifting.

I quite understand; however, I'd be inclined to regard this more as a shortcoming of extant mechanical shifters as anything else. It seems almost inconceivable that the brakes can be used safely whist shifting is simply not possible.

Picking up on Trev's point (and one I've made before) a friend of mine (also of that "older women" demographic) literally couldn't ride at all until she got a road/touring bike with Di2 and hydraulic disc brakes. She used to ride but then a combination of arthritis and Reynauds made using cable operated systems impossible.

She can now ride again - in fact being retired she spends an awful lot of time riding, does multiple tours a year! She's not "fast", she doesn't care about aero or power or even (to a certain extent) gear ratios. She just knows that what she has works for her and does so flawlessly.

More to the point, nothing needed to be "persuaded" to work. None of it needed dremels, epoxy resin, a mechanical engineering degree and a shedload of fettling time to adapt something that was fundamentally not suitable into something that "might" work. This just DOES work.

Edit: just to pick up on this comment specifically:
It seems almost inconceivable that the brakes can be used safely whist shifting is simply not possible.

The throw on many levers, especially at the budget end, can be really quite dramatic whereas brakes can be set pretty close to the rim and often there's a reach adjust too. Where it's most obvious is at kids circuit races where you can see smaller / less strong hands really struggling to push the lever far enough across to change gear.

[NickJP]

I have bikes with mechanical shifting and bikes with electronic shifting. Both work fine. On modern frames with concealed everything, it's far quicker to setup a bike with electronic shifting than to have to route and run mechanical shift cables.

I have two bikes with the original 11-speed SRAM Red eTap shifters/derailleurs dating from ~2014 or 2015. I've not had any problems with the components on either bike, and the only things that have needed replacing in the decade that I've had the bikes have been the CR2032 button cells in the shifters every couple of years. I also have a more recent bike with the cheaper 12-speed SRAM Rival AXS, and in the couple of years I've been using it, no problems there either. My wife has the SRAM Eagle AXS 1x12 on a couple of her bikes, and that has also been completely reliable.

[Brucey]

...Edit: just to pick up on this comment specifically;
It seems almost inconceivable that the brakes can be used safely whist shifting is simply not possible.

The throw on many levers, especially at the budget end, can be really quite dramatic whereas brakes can be set pretty close to the rim and often there's a reach adjust too. Where it's most obvious is at kids circuit races where you can see smaller / less strong hands really struggling to push the lever far enough across to change gear.

I know that some folk struggle with the brakes; but this is (in good part) because braking is difficult. It is possible to make a self-servoing brake, (this is how most drum brakes work) but this almost always comes at the expense of modulation quality or worse. As it happens I believe that much of the good modulation in hydraulic discs stems from the use of hydraulics not cables, and that the 'sweet spot' for bicycle brakes probably lies with hydraulically actuated drum brakes (these would last longer than discs whilst modulating 'well enough' for most folk) but that is probably not relevant here. What is relevant is that shifting is (or should be) much easier than braking.

Most of the cable tension in a cable-operated system is just there to keep the mechs and the cable itself happy; even so, the force required could be a lot less. And then there is the matter of ergonomics to consider. IMHO the ergonomics of standard cable-operated STis are pretty
woeful; little wonder then, that so many folk (myself included) are wont to eschew them in favour of alternatives. Cable-operated STis, vs. anything else uses different muscles, differently; 'awkward' barely begins to describe it.

[Bmblbzzz]

And then there is the matter of ergonomics to consider. IMHO the ergonomics of standard cable-operated STis are pretty
woeful; little wonder then, that so many folk (myself included) are wont to eschew them in favour of alternatives. Cable-operated STis, vs. anything else uses different muscles, differently; 'awkward' barely begins to describe it.

I think that's true of the up-shift, using the small paddle. You're pressing it with your fingertip, but a not quite straight finger (depends on the length of your fingers of course) and, I think the crucial factor, instead of prodding it with the very end of your finger like say a smartphone screen, you're moving it a small distance with the pad of your fingertip. The ergonomics of flat-bar trigger shifters are much better, as are old skool downtube levers (at least in this respect). I haven't used the buttons of electronic shifters but I'd imagine they're quite easy to use, particularly as they can be placed wherever you find it easiest to reach them.

[mattheus]

And then there is the matter of ergonomics to consider. IMHO the ergonomics of standard cable-operated STis are pretty
woeful; little wonder then, that so many folk (myself included) are wont to eschew them in favour of alternatives. Cable-operated STis, vs. anything else uses different muscles, differently; 'awkward' barely begins to describe it.

I think that's true of the up-shift, using the small paddle. You're pressing it with your fingertip, but a not quite straight finger (depends on the length of your fingers of course) and, I think the crucial factor, instead of prodding it with the very end of your finger like say a smartphone screen, you're moving it a small distance with the pad of your fingertip. The ergonomics of flat-bar trigger shifters are much better, as are old skool downtube levers (at least in this respect). I haven't used the buttons of electronic shifters but I'd imagine they're quite easy to use, particularly as they can be placed wherever you find it easiest to reach them.

I've only used 10sp flavours of each, but the Campag button (Mouse ear, i think some call them??) is much much better in this respect. Despite looking a lot less elegant!

[rareposter]

I haven't used the buttons of electronic shifters but I'd imagine they're quite easy to use, particularly as they can be placed wherever you find it easiest to reach them.

The beauty of electronic is you can have exactly as you say - any number of buttons strategically placed to suit you as an individual rider.

I had a couple of little "sprint" blips on my former Di2. Your thumb hooked over them when in the drops and you could shift up or down even in a full on sprint without taking your fingers off the bars towards the main brake / shift paddle.
Some riders use blips on the top of the handlebar to allow shifting while climbing. Time triallists use them on the very end of aerobars to shift without moving from their aero tuck.

Works very well for people with hand/wrist disabilities too, allowing multiple options for shifting both mechs from one shifter or from positions other than the hoods/drops.

IMHO the ergonomics of standard cable-operated STis are pretty woeful; little wonder then, that so many folk (myself included) are wont to eschew them in favour of alternatives.

I'd disagree with you on the first point - I think the brake/gear combination ergonomics on both flat bar and drop bar is very good, about the best compromise for most people most of the time while still allowing effective control of the bike, options for mounting a bar bag and so on. And it's pretty telling them no-one has ever come up with any sort of mass-market alternative.
And in looking for alternatives... well yes, electronic shifting!
But you don't seem to like that...

However the thread is a long way from it's OP of sustainability issues and is once again rehashing good/bad/indifferent and I like / I don't like electronic shifting opinions.

[maanderx]

IMHO the ergonomics of standard cable-operated STis are pretty woeful; little wonder then, that so many folk (myself included) are wont to eschew them in favour of alternatives.

I'd disagree with you on the first point - I think the brake/gear combination ergonomics on both flat bar and drop bar is very good, about the best compromise for most people most of the time while still allowing effective control of the bike, options for mounting a bar bag and so on. And it's pretty telling them no-one has ever come up with any sort of mass-market alternative.
And in looking for alternatives... well yes, electronic shifting!
But you don't seem to like that...

[Brucey]

..... I think the brake/gear combination ergonomics on both flat bar and drop bar is very good, about the best compromise for most people most of the time while still allowing effective control of the bike.....

if you are saying they are the best of a bad lot, I might agree. If you are claiming that it is essential to be able to brake and change gear simultaneously, however, I would just like to point out that few driving a car with a manual gearbox have ever felt likewise.

I am not saying that electronic shifting is bad, difficult to set up, not of some benefit in real racing, or doesn't work; more that it represents an entirely unnecessary complication for most cyclists, in many cases disenfranchising them from being able to fix any minor problems that might arise. Having wasted countless hours tracking down various different (and mostly avoidable, in hindsight) intermittent electrical faults elsewhere, I have absolutely no desire to repeat the process when fixing my bike.

[Bmblbzzz]

..... I think the brake/gear combination ergonomics on both flat bar and drop bar is very good, about the best compromise for most people most of the time while still allowing effective control of the bike.....

if you are saying they are the best of a bad lot, I might agree. If you are claiming that it is essential to be able to brake and change gear simultaneously, however, I would just like to point out that few driving a car with a manual gearbox have ever felt likewise.

What's it got to do with changing gear while braking? It's about changing gear while steering, if anything, and controlling the bike on bumpy surfaces.

[Brucey]

..... It's about changing gear while steering, if anything, and controlling the bike on bumpy surfaces.....

as a cyclist, you are expected to be able to steer one-handed, briefly, in order to give hand signals, the timing of which you have little choice about. By contrast, you can change gear (one-handed if necessary) pretty much when you like.

There are, of course, no end of different methods by which you can maintain control over bumpy surfaces; this is certainly not the exclusive province of STis etc.

[Bmblbzzz]

Yeah and having gear-shifting always to hand without removing hands from bars means you can do it while on rough stuff too. This is why mountain bikers adopted thumbies even before indexing was a thing.

[RickH]

I've just come across this discussion. I've been writing some notes to document my transition from SRAM 1x11 to 1x12 AXS. My main motivation is wanting to retain integrated shifting while mitigating the effect shifting actions have on developing arthritis (probably - had blood taken for tests but not got results yet).

I'll post a longer post, either on here or as a separate topic later. The brief summary, for now, is I've swapped a 1x11 Rival mechanical derailleur & 10-42 cassettes (2 sets of wheels) for GX AXS derailleur, GX chain & 10-52 cassettes. These are currently operated by wireless blips mounted on the inboard side of the bars, mostly under the bar tape, just below the hoods.

GX AXS derailleur, cassette & chain fitted (click to enlarge)

Wireless blips, with 1p coin for size comparison (click to enlarge)

Blip placement (click to enlarge)

I've ridden nearly 200 miles so far & my fingers approve. The only slight niggle is I think my derailleur hanger is very slightly bent. 11 gears are fine but I can't get 2nd gear (42T) to run smoothly, the chain rattles somewhat on the shifting ramps of 1st (52T). I'll get a new hanger & see if that sorts it. It would be nice if there was an option to micro adjust individual gears (or, if there is, I haven't found it).

I'm still using the original Rival brakes for now (complete with, now redundant shifter paddle) & will decide what I'm doing with those in the new year.

[rareposter]

It would be nice if there was an option to micro adjust individual gears (or, if there is, I haven't found it).

Video guide to SRAM micro adjust:

https://youtu.be/8EbsxIr_YWg?si=6QurO8IehUWetrAZ

You are however correct in getting a new mech hanger, that's the first thing to check if it's out of adjustment.

[Bmblbzzz]

I'm still using the original Rival brakes for now (complete with, now redundant shifter paddle) & will decide what I'm doing with those in the new year.

It's a shame you can't somehow wire up the shifter paddles to operate the blips. Or maybe you can?

[rareposter]

It's a shame you can't somehow wire up the shifter paddles to operate the blips. Or maybe you can?

Not wire them up as such, they're wireless. But the system "knows" they're there and they can be programmed to do whatever you want in terms of shifting, locking out/unlocking remote suspension and raising/lowering a remote dropper post.