Solar panels - or not?

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ChrisF
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Solar panels - or not?

Post by ChrisF »

For many years I have ben wondering about installing solar panels on our roof. It's E-W facing, so I've always thought that it wouldn't be very cost-effective. But panels are improving, so I have recently received two quotes for installing panels and a battery.
As see it, there are only 2 reasons to install solar :
  • to use 'green' energy rather than fossil fuels (or nuclear)
  • to save money (in the long term)
Because of the orientation of our house, our payback time would be 12-13 years which is higher than the 10 years or less I understand is possible for a south-facing roof.
For the last few years we have been buying all our electricity (and gas) from Ecotricity https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/, which claims to buy all it's power from truly green sources. So, in our case, it's debatable whether installing the panels would be sensible environmentally - I'm sure industrial-scale panels installed by Ecotricty would be more efficient. And, if Ecotricity plough all profits into new solar panels and wind turbines, any monely we saved from our own bills would otherwise be used to enhance green power generation nationally.

So I can't decide wether to go ahead or not - any thoughts?
Chris F, Cornwall
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

ChrisF wrote: 11 Dec 2024, 11:55am For many years I have ben wondering about installing solar panels on our roof. It's E-W facing, so I've always thought that it wouldn't be very cost-effective. But panels are improving, so I have recently received two quotes for installing panels and a battery.
As see it, there are only 2 reasons to install solar :
  • to use 'green' energy rather than fossil fuels (or nuclear)
  • to save money (in the long term)
Because of the orientation of our house, our payback time would be 12-13 years which is higher than the 10 years or less I understand is possible for a south-facing roof.
For the last few years we have been buying all our electricity (and gas) from Ecotricity https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/, which claims to buy all it's power from truly green sources. So, in our case, it's debatable whether installing the panels would be sensible environmentally - I'm sure industrial-scale panels installed by Ecotricty would be more efficient. And, if Ecotricity plough all profits into new solar panels and wind turbines, any monely we saved from our own bills would otherwise be used to enhance green power generation nationally.

So I can't decide wether to go ahead or not - any thoughts?
I will watch with interest, we're just starting to look at this too.

On the "save money" front, it's maybe as much to protect against future price changes as current savings; fossil fuels are both finite and price volatile.

I've not looked into it in detail, but I'm highly sceptical of suppliers that promise to buy renewable energy on your behalf. The amount of fossil and nuclear fuel burned is always whatever is necessary to top up renewables. If you buy renewable power, by definition, someone else must be buying the fossil fuels needed. Reducing your usage at peak times would be a far better way to reduce overall fossil fuel usage, I suspect. Of course, buying solar panels increases supply, which genuinely does reduce fossil fuel usage as long as it affects peak time usage which is why an installation without a battery would be effectively useless in climate change terms. And the midwinter position matters much more than the midsummer position, so solar makes less impact than you might think.

Finally, no point in installing panels until you've maxed out insulation. That will almost certainly have better payback, and more climate impact per £

ramble over.
rjb
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by rjb »

We have 4Kw of PV panels on our roof. Faces due East. It generates approx 3000 units annually. Highest generation in the summer when we can't use it and export it to the grid, and lowest over the winter when we need it.
We are on the generous fit scheme which is no longer available and get paid for everything we generate irrespective of how much we export, so we maximise usage by heating hot water using a solar diverter. Smart metering helps to show when we need to stagger our usage but Swmbo still runs appliances in tandem rather than in sequence. :(
Income payment totals approx £650 a year, rising with RPI. It cost £6000 to install, so over 10 years it has paid for itself. It's also saving us approx £250 on our annual electric bill. However if you take inflation into account we are now breaking even.
The Inverter had a predicted 10 year lifetime so we will need to replace this soon which will cost approx £600.
We don't have battery storage and I've looked at adding them on but it's not economic yet. Possibly an electric car could be the way forward but upfront costs are another issue.

Take any predictions which the seller gives with a pinch of salt. :shock:
If you are doing this for economic reasons I think you would be better off funding a stocks and shares ISA in my view. But for green reasons it's a good thing.
:D

Factor in cleaning costs and pigeon proofing if these are an issue too.
Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X2, Raleigh 20 stowaway X2, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840, Giant Bowery, Apollo transition. :D
ChrisF
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by ChrisF »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 11 Dec 2024, 12:07pm .....The amount of fossil and nuclear fuel burned is always whatever is necessary to top up renewables. If you buy renewable power, by definition, someone else must be buying the fossil fuels needed. ...
A good point in favour of going ahead, thanks
rjb wrote: 11 Dec 2024, 12:50pm .....for economic reasons I think you would be better off funding a stocks and shares ISA in my view
Hmmm - ironically I'd be selling (part of) a ISA to pay for the solar installation. And it's an environmentally-aware one too.
Chris F, Cornwall
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simonineaston
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by simonineaston »

As an amusing - or not... aside, it turns out that part of the deal swung by the developers of the block I live in included a large array of solar panels up on the roof of the apartment blocks. Having done the deal and got it all signed off, the developers built the homes, installed the panels and having trousered the profit, walked away. No maintenance has been carried out since and the feed-in tarif promised to the residents has been quietly kept by the freeholder.
Modern life, eh...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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Cugel
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by Cugel »

Being a net producer rather than a consumer does feel good, these days. Even reducing the consumption and increasing the production is worth it "emotionally" let's say. :-)

Can you do a cost comparison of:

Cost of electricity at normal rates for ten years (including a best-guess inflation figure) vs capital cost of solar + batteries + resultant e-juice cost reductions over that ten years? Don't forget that having batteries means you can buy and store e-juice (for use next day) at night for 6.5p per kwh rather than the daily rate of 25p per kwh. (Those are our electricity rates, they vary with the supplier). Take that into account in your calculation, along with the lesser use of grid kwh because of your solar kwh generation and use.

You may also be able to sell excess summer e-juice back to the grid. Rates vary but 15p per kwh is not unheard of. The trick is to find a supplier that allows you to export at the most-use times, as these are the pays-most times. You can even use battery-stored e-juice as an e-commodity, so in theory you could download overnight to fill a battery not yet filled by your daytime solar then sell what you don't use yourself next day for twice what you paid for it.

Make the most, also, of solar by obtaining a means to store more of it when you don't have a normal use for it (typically in summer). Some have large heat-batteries (a very large hot water tank, highly insulated) from which you can extract heat for the house heating or for hot water use on the no or low solar generation days. The heat is retained in these things for weeks. If you suffer from really hot summer days, get some air-source heat pumps for cooling, as they're also a useful (and inexpensive to run) heat source in the really cold times.

If it doesn't involve huge expense to reconfig your heating, consider installing heat pumps for all heating and hot water. Unless you already have Very Big radiators or underfloor heating, this can be expensive, though.

An air source heat pump that just heats or cools air into the house is much less expensive and trivial to install (if you use a skilled and knowledgeable installer). We added two to the already-extant ground source heat pump, purely for cooling on the increasingly red-hot number of British summer days, using e-juice from our solar that would otherwise be exported to the grid for nowt, as we already have an existing FiT so can't sell anymore solar from our new solar panels, retaining the original FiT solar & inverter as a completely separate system to serve the FiT.

Another consideration is the addition of a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply). If the grid gets weather-beaten for a day or three or the supplier goes defunct overnight, you'll be able to use your batteries and solar to keep going for a while, as long as there's sunlight or a bright cloud cover or your batteries were fullish when the grid disappeared.

**************
If you have the capital, I feel that such investment is a no-brainer. And its a lot less risky that gambling with stocks & shares. If the economy of Planet Erf is destroyed by Trunt & Muskrat, your solar & battery will be an even better investment. In all events, it can't really fail. And the sun won't mind you exploiting it whereas the workers making the actual value behind stocks & shares will, since your divvies depresses their wages. :-)
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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Aikon
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by Aikon »

A friend was considering an E&W system with 20x 430 kwp panels, 5 kWh Givenergy inverter & 9.5 kWh battery, payback was 7-9 years if he used the Octopus Intelligent Flux tariff & used half of the estimated 7000 kWh estimated generation.

He’s on track for beating the generation estimate by 10% and is only consuming 3000 so it’s over performing nicely.

We have lower generation on our 14x 370 SSE facing system though with a plug in hybrid company car that’s reimbursed by work at 25ppm, and the Octopus Go tariff for import our calculations are more complex but similar time for payback. (We have the same Givenergy inverter & battery)
ChrisF
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by ChrisF »

Cugel wrote: 11 Dec 2024, 4:50pm
Can you do a cost comparison of:
Cost of electricity at normal rates for ten years .....
The calculated payback time (similar for both quotes) includes all of this, i.e. estimated inflation, selling power back to grid, etc
Cugel wrote: 11 Dec 2024, 4:50pm Make the most, also, of solar by obtaining a means to store more of it when you don't have a normal use for it (typically in summer). Some have large heat-batteries (a very large hot water tank, highly insulated) from which you can extract heat for the house heating or for hot water use on the no or low solar generation days. The heat is retained in these things for weeks. If you suffer from really hot summer days, get some air-source heat pumps for cooling, as they're also a useful (and inexpensive to run) heat source in the really cold times.
I've not seen mention of 'heat-batteries' anywhere in my research, apart from using a standard hotwater tank - which at ~10kWh is similar to (or slightly bigger than) a standard solar battery - although of course a lot cheaper. One of my quotes includes an automatic diverter to heat the tank when there's spare power. Any additional tank would need much more space though, and be tricky to plumb in.
Cugel wrote: 11 Dec 2024, 4:50pm If it doesn't involve huge expense to reconfig your heating, consider installing heat pumps .....
I have considered a heat pump but our property isn't really suitable (microbore radiators for example). I can see that it would work well being powered with solar electric, but wouldn't really affect the main question in my post.
Cugel wrote: 11 Dec 2024, 4:50pm Another consideration is the addition of a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply). If the grid gets weather-beaten for a day or three or the supplier goes defunct overnight, you'll be able to use your batteries and solar to keep going for a while, as long as there's sunlight or a bright cloud cover or your batteries were fullish when the grid disappeared.
Yes, using the battery pack to cover against power cuts is a big plus - although it adds to the cost; standard installations don't have this feature.
Chris F, Cornwall
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RickH
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by RickH »

Just having a battery combined with a smart meter & a flexible tarriff would enable you to shift load so you mainly/only use power from the grid when it's cheap (including sometimes negative).

An alternative (or supplement) to rooftop solar could be investing in one of Ripple Energy's wind farms & solar farms (https://rippleenergy.com/) where you own part of the farm & benefit from your share of the generation.
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
Carlton green
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by Carlton green »

RickH wrote: 11 Dec 2024, 10:35pm Just having a battery combined with a smart meter & a flexible tarriff would enable you to shift load so you mainly/only use power from the grid when it's cheap (including sometimes negative).
I’ve wondered about that and (overall) think it probably as green as anything else. Wind powered electricity is generated overnight (too) and needs a use so buy it in off-peak from say Ecotricity. The installation needs to be wired such that when the mains goes down the battery can still provide power to your home. I’d be very interested in hearing more about such storage systems: buying in power off-peak could be a saving, and I would certainly value still having electricity when the mains has gone down.

Solar panels tend to produce electricity when you don’t need it and don’t produce it when you do. What fiscal value that they add to your home is uncertain - so you might never recoup the cost - and the cost to remove them at the end of their life should be added into calculations. Costs should also include an element for ongoing maintenance and repair - cleaning is sometimes needed and occasionally stuff breaks, On the plus side those that bought panels some years back have escaped some of the electricity tariff rises, in practice their systems are paying back earlier than anticipated.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
rjb
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by rjb »

After our electric was cut during the recent storms I had an inspirational flash. If I had a 12v battery to hand I could have powered up the internet router and Swmbo could entertain herself watching strictly on her iPad. :lol:
Is this feasible?
Reported this morning, homes down in Somerset are still waiting to be reconnected, 5 days after the storm. :(
Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X2, Raleigh 20 stowaway X2, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840, Giant Bowery, Apollo transition. :D
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

rjb wrote: 12 Dec 2024, 8:30am After our electric was cut during the recent storms I had an inspirational flash. If I had a 12v battery to hand I could have powered up the internet router and Swmbo could entertain herself watching strictly on her iPad. :lol:
Is this feasible?
Reported this morning, homes down in Somerset are still waiting to be reconnected, 5 days after the storm. :(
Yes easy done especially if you have a small 240 to 12v inverter.
Even I, as very technically challenged, manage this!!
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simonineaston
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by simonineaston »

Another amusing aside - or not...
The solar panel that powers the cold room up at the csa blew over during one of the recent storms (so many I can't remember all the names - it reminds me of each September, faced with a new class). Now the panel is crazed and the charge lamp on the panel is ominously dark... fortunately, we don't really need the cold room!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
rjb
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by rjb »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 12 Dec 2024, 8:43am
rjb wrote: 12 Dec 2024, 8:30am After our electric was cut during the recent storms I had an inspirational flash. If I had a 12v battery to hand I could have powered up the internet router and Swmbo could entertain herself watching strictly on her iPad. :lol:
Is this feasible?
Reported this morning, homes down in Somerset are still waiting to be reconnected, 5 days after the storm. :(
Yes easy done especially if you have a small 240 to 12v inverter.
Even I, as very technically challenged, manage this!!
Thanks. Now need to make some leads up before the next outage. Whens the next storm due.
Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X2, Raleigh 20 stowaway X2, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840, Giant Bowery, Apollo transition. :D
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Solar panels - or not?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

rjb wrote: 12 Dec 2024, 9:38am
PDQ Mobile wrote: 12 Dec 2024, 8:43am
rjb wrote: 12 Dec 2024, 8:30am After our electric was cut during the recent storms I had an inspirational flash. If I had a 12v battery to hand I could have powered up the internet router and Swmbo could entertain herself watching strictly on her iPad. :lol:
Is this feasible?
Reported this morning, homes down in Somerset are still waiting to be reconnected, 5 days after the storm. :(
Yes easy done especially if you have a small 240 to 12v inverter.
Even I, as very technically challenged, manage this!!
Thanks. Now need to make some leads up before the next outage. Whens the next storm due.
You should take expert advice on any direct connection of, say, a vehicle battery to the router.
The high amperage of the former is potentially a risk I think.
A, say, 500 w inverter (250 might do) would remove that risk and offer additional benefits such as simultaneously charging mobile devices, phones, ipads etc.
......
AIUI all landlines will become "digital" soon so they too will require a power source, one could not longer use them to phone up the leccy company to say " we have a power cut!!!".
So that might be another plus.
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