Cleat adapters to allow more forwards adjustability?

[Manc33]

I have found cleat adapters that allow up to 24mm more cleat positioning further back on the shoe, that's the opposite of what I need.

I can't find any adapters that let you put the cleat further forwards. Maybe they could be fabricated somehow, since it would just be a flat plate of steel the same depth as the bolts, with 3 threaded holes that have a recess (bolt onto shoe using double length bolts) and 3 threaded holes further forwards without recesses for the cleat bolts. So much faffing though, I don't have the tools to make them, although maybe they could be done with helicoils.

The ball of my foot needs to go about 10mm further forwards and the cleats I have on are as far forwards as they will go.

If the holes on my shoes were 16.5mm further forwards, then I could put the cleats in the middle of the slot (13mm adjustability) and that would be right. Then they would be 16.5mm further forwards due to the holes and pulled back to the middle of the slot by 6.5mm to put them 10mm forwards. I know for sure my foot isn't where it's meant to be and isn't where it was with flat pedals.

What is this fad now with having cleats further back anyway? On these UK size 9.5 shoes, the front bolt hole is 80mm from the toe of the shoe. Does that sound like the bolt holes are too far back? Who's a size 9.5 that can check theirs?

I could get shoes that have holes further forwards (Mavic? Fizik?) but that's too expensive, when I only just got new shoes. Should have tried them in a shop instead of buying online like a dumbo!

[mattsccm]

What are you trying to achieve that is contrary to modern thinking? Not saying you shouldn't but if on the whole, shoes don't do what you want then maybe you have to reconsider. Such adjusters are probably not needed or at least in such volume that they exist.

[Manc33]

What are you trying to achieve that is contrary to modern thinking? Not saying you shouldn't but if on the whole, shoes don't do what you want then maybe you have to reconsider. Such adjusters are probably not needed or at least in such volume that they exist.

My foot is about 10mm back from where I used to put it on flat pedals. The cleats can't go any further forward.

I keep finding websites with names like "Midfoot Riding" lol. Who on earth rides with cleats in the center of the sole?

After 40 years of riding a bike, I can't even begin to explain how wrong that would be to me.

Edit: I just checked and the bone on the inside of my foot (apparently called the medial sesamoid) is indeed directly over the pedal axle. That seems right then! Maybe I just need to get used to the shoes. Maybe all that time I did have my foot too far back on flat pedals, but I can't see how that's even possible when there's only one optimum position and when you can freely plant your foot any way you want, it's not going to be wrong.

[531colin]

Rule of thumb for general purposes riding; ball of foot 5 or 10mm in front of pedal spindle.
Foot further back than that for sprinting, city centre criterium racing.

…I think, from memory.
Google “Steve Hogg cleat position” for the full 9 yards!

[Manc33]

Google “Steve Hogg cleat position” for the full 9 yards!

Cheers Colin you are a forum veteran/legend and I'll look it up.

Years ago (maybe late 1980's, early 1990's) it was all about the ball of your foot being directly over the axle. Things seem to have changed and to prevent bad knees (and the rest, it seems to start at the ankle and can affect all the way to the hips) most advice now says have the ball of your foot where you said, if anything, just behind in front of the axle. That feels odd to me and inefficient, but a video I saw with a bike fitter said due to the amount of leverage on the foot alone, it hardly makes any difference where the cleat is and it's always better too far back than too far forward. It can get quite complicated!

[Samuel D]

A problem I find with the cleats too far back (although like Goldilocks I don’t want them too far forward either) is that it doesn’t give much room to adjust the effective saddle height by adjusting the ankle angle.

There are times I want to slide back on the saddle and others I slide forward. That changes, by enough to be noticeable, the angle my ankle must adopt to maintain the same knee extension. (Or the range of angles the ankle must adopt, to be precise – because of course there is some ankling action during a crank rotation.)

A greater change of ankle angle is needed to accommodate a difference in effective saddle height as the ankle-to-cleat distance goes down, since then the foot is a shorter lever.

Possibly the purported solution to this knock-on problem is the shorter cranks that have simultaneously become popular? Although I haven’t given much thought to this. Cranks are only a little bit shorter than a few years ago, 5 mm or something. Enough to matter here?

[ymfb]

Why not consider a professional bike fit, which includes getting your shoes & cleats in the optimal position.

I had mine done and the bike fitter moved both cleats, which are now different to each other as are my feet. I also ended up changing my pedals for ones with longer spindles.

Knees and cramps much improved.

[531colin]

.....The ball of my foot needs to go about 10mm further forwards and the cleats I have on are as far forwards as they will go........

I'm a bit late pointing this out, but you do know this doesn't make sense?

[531colin]

................
My foot is about 10mm back from where I used to put it on flat pedals. The cleats can't go any further forward.
............

Yebbut.......moving the cleats forward on the shoe moves your foot backwards on the pedal

[531colin]

Google “Steve Hogg cleat position” for the full 9 yards!

Cheers Colin you are a forum veteran/legend and I'll look it up.

Years ago (maybe late 1980's, early 1990's) it was all about the ball of your foot being directly over the axle. Things seem to have changed and to prevent bad knees (and the rest, it seems to start at the ankle and can affect all the way to the hips) most advice now says have the ball of your foot where you said, if anything, just behind the axle. That feels odd to me and inefficient, but a video I saw with a bike fitter said due to the amount of leverage on the foot alone, it hardly makes any difference where the cleat is and it's always better too far back than too far forward. It can get quite complicated!

NO, I said ball of foot in front of the pedal spindle

[531colin]

A problem I find with the cleats too far back (although like Goldilocks I don’t want them too far forward either) is that it doesn’t give much room to adjust the effective saddle height by adjusting the ankle angle.

There are times I want to slide back on the saddle and others I slide forward. That changes, by enough to be noticeable, the angle my ankle must adopt to maintain the same knee extension. (Or the range of angles the ankle must adopt, to be precise – because of course there is some ankling action during a crank rotation.)

A greater change of ankle angle is needed to accommodate a difference in effective saddle height as the ankle-to-cleat distance goes down, since then the foot is a shorter lever.

Possibly the purported solution to this knock-on problem is the shorter cranks that have simultaneously become popular? Although I haven’t given much thought to this. Cranks are only a little bit shorter than a few years ago, 5 mm or something. Enough to matter here?

Everything else being equal, if you fit 5mm shorter cranks you will raise the saddle 5mm to keep the bend in your knee the same with the pedal at the bottom.

I ride with my saddle un-fashionably low; here is the logic.....

I want to be able to slide back in the saddle in order to un-weight the front wheel, without over-extending my knees.
If I want more knee extension for a hard push for a little while, I can drop my heels, or slide back in the saddle, or both.
On tracks, I want to be able to pedal without any real weight on the saddle, without having to reach for the pedal at the bottom (by rocking my hips, pedalling toe-down )
I think reaching for the pedal at the bottom is a bad thing; I see people rocking on the saddle to get the pedal past the bottom, this can make you sore (and just possibly give you backache?)
Some people are natural toe-down pedallers, some pedal toe down because a lot of seatpost out of the frame is a fashion necessity.

Samuel, I recommend you try your saddle just 5mm lower, and see how you get on.

If you want a bit of reading, google Steve Hogg saddle height how hard can it be? (also required reading for anybody thinking of having a bike fit)....actually, that page has changed since I last looked.....still worth a read, particularly Steve's recommended way to set your own saddle height....although I think this is aimed at riding competitively on tarmac.

[TrevA]

I’ve found Fizik shoes have the cleat holes further forward than other makes. So much so that I couldn’t get my cleats far enough back.

[ed.lazda]

I'm not a bike fitter, but from what I've read: ankling (and pulling up on the pedals) are now regarded as unnecessary. The ankle joint should be stable to get the best transmission of power, and this is easier to achieve with the feet further forward (cleats further back), as there is then less leverage at the ankle joint. Yes, this is contrary to what many of us were taught as kids -- good ankling, pedal with the ball of your foot, etc -- but I guess that's progress.

[NickJP]

I don't know about road shoes with 3-bolt cleats (I don't own any) but on a lot of shoes that have the 2-bolt SPD fitting, if you remove the foam insole you can get to the metal plate to which the cleat attaches. See image below of the inside of a pair of Shimano MTB shoes where I've removed the insole.

Remove the cleat, take the plate out, and use a dremel or similar to lengthen the two slots in the sole of the shoe in the direction you want. Depending on how much additional fore/aft movement you want, you may also need to shorten the metal plate as well.

[Brucey]

at one time spare SPD cleats used to come with the threaded plates; as Nick says, it is not difficult to modify the plates/shoes, using a dremel tool.