Panorama 'E-bikes'

[axel_knutt]

I know MYSELF that as a customer I will not click on the item that costs £5 more, just because they pay their own delivery drivers, at a decent wage, with a fair contract.

It's easy to tell which products cost more, but not so easy to tell which has better working conditions, and sometimes the extra cost is just paying for a vacuous designer brand.

We're angry if the Amazon / ebay item, bought at rock bottom price, fails to arrive the next day... etc etc. We care not how the blessed thing appears at the door and dont give a second thought for the folk struggling to make a living by servicing our voracious demand for more and more new things.

I remember the good old days when you could hand over the money and walk away with the goods at the same time...

[Cadence]

That reminds me of the situation behind the DVLA change in policy over self converted campervans getting the log book changed to motorcaravan. Something about the police investigating motoring offences and witness stations getting confused over the campervan so self converted became van with windows instead of campervan and you could not convert the log book from panel van category to motorcaravan even though you have a conversion almost identical to the OE equivalent that was registered by the manufacturer as a motorcaravan.

What I mean is it is not the person who knows the converted van is a camper because of the modifications that those new rules were for but the general public who knows little about the topic. Just like this ebike thing. It is not an ebike because you, knowing the finer detail of regulations and pretty much studied it well, it is the majority of people who make up the wider population who do not know those finer details and see something with two wheels, pedals (whether used or not) and an electric motor who then call it an ebike. If most people do not know that regulations say it needs to have 250watts constant max or that it needs to be pedalled to benefit from the motor or whatever else defines an ebike then they look for what they know. Two wheels, e-motor, remnants of pedals, etc make it an ebike for them.

If you accept that mass knowledge gap then does the programme not make a little more sense? It is using the type of personal transprt that the wider public without specialist knowledge see as e-bikes. So if it is talking about issues with those and using the e-bike term then that is just what is more widely known than what is known on here.

As i said before, iI only watched a small part of it and have not seen the whole programme but it seemed to me that it was talking about the types of personal transport that courier riders for the food delivery companies tend to use. A two wheeled machine with e motor and even if they have pedals the pedals are not used unless the battery is dead or just fro show. I knew they were not meeting e-bike regulations but they were still half bike like. Of course I have the emotor bike type that is clearly a motor bike IRL (ridden by youths with balaclavas and black clothing that is not easily distinguised from others in black clothing on these deviced. These are not what I saw in the section of the programme I watched, with the police officers lifting the back wheel and measuring the speed of it and noting how the back wheel turned without pedalling.They were in between but it was fair to say they looked more bike like than motorbike like. As I said I can not say what was in the parts of the programme I did not see. I do think you need to look at it not with the knowledge of what is a legal bike but what looks like a bike to someone with little knowledge of what a bike is.

BTW on an aside, there is a book published by an engineer whos name i can not recal who used drawings of what a bike is by a wide sector of the population and it listed their job.It was a funny book showing what people drew from memory what a standard upright, rigid bike is. Most of those he got to draw got it wrong with some spectacular images. Even the mechanical engineers who drew for him got it completely wrong. People do not always notice the details of things they see what they and their POV or perceptions let them.

Accepting completely what you say about the perception of the general public, it is even more important that programmes like Panorama actually get the facts right. In one part, with a line-up of different bikes, the "expert" stated "but they are all illegal because they have throttles", which is not the case. A throttle is permitted to operate without pedalling up to 6km/h. In that configuration it is no different to the "walk-assist" button included on many displays - referred to by some manufacturers as "start assist". It can also be operable above 6km/h, but only if the pedals are turned (i.e. it is providing pedal assistance). If the police test such a throttle by lifting the back wheel it will max. out at 6km/h - perfectly legal. "Twist and Go" throttles however (any speed above 6km/h without pedalling), are illegal.

I do believe that in the bit I watched he said that while testing the speed of a bike at top speed, and said while at xx.xmph (I can't remember the speed given but it was in into double figures and IIRC was just under the 15.5mph) it was below the legal top speed. But it was still illegal because it was running without the use of the pedal. I think he also played around with the throttle as well. So they were stopping illegal bikes for several reasons. Throttle above 6mph, not pedal assisted, etc.

You can be a fan of ebikes without sounding like you are looking for loopholes to argue that the police are wrong to get these e-bikes off the streets. I am a fan of legal e-bikes but I see way too many illegal ones being sold. And don't get me onto the topic of Halfords selling e-scooters with very little responsibility over making it clear they are not legal in most places on public roads (and footpaths).

I suggest you re-read what I said, not what you think I said. I wasn't looking for "loopholes", I was pointing out that the Panorama programme, the so called "expert" with his collection of illegal electric motorbikes, and possibly the police were not presenting or applying the law regarding throttles correctly. This, and other misrepresentations have been the subject of formal complaints to the BBC by the Cycle Association, the Independent Cycle Traders Association and others. I fully support the police in getting illegal electric bikes off the streets, and more importantly off pavements and out of shopping centres. Sadly, all Panorama have done is stoke up yet more public animosity against "e-bikes", when fully compliant EAPC's are beneficial to thousands of people.

[Tangled Metal]

@cadence I was not targeting anyone just the way some people take what they see and jump on every little thing they say that is wrong or taken as wrong. From what I saw they were pretty typical police. They seemed the typical police who know enough to do their job but do not know the details. In the section I did see they told the owner why they were siezing the bike. Things like saying It was legal on speed but not when that speed is applied without the use of pedals. Or throttle use at speeds it is illegal to on e-bikes, Or any of the other contraventions.

AT the end of the day I do want more bike use, I also see e-bikes as a good way to get people on bikes whether it is commuting, work or leisure. There are benefits in that it has been shown that with e-bikes people tend to get more exercise than non e-bikes. E-bikes are a good option for delivery bike riders to extend their ability to work but only if legal and safe. E-bikes are good for helping people commute short distances by bike when they are not used to cycling. If you struggle to ride a normal bike on your commute an e-bike helps you just enough to allow you to make the trip on an E-bike. The only issue I have is that the bikes must be safe and conform to all legislation that is relevant to them. As to use by people committing illegal activities that too I think needs to be stopped but that is true no matter what mode of transportation they use. My preference is to target those selling them, make it hard to get illegal bikes somehow but after that seizing illegal bikes are a second option, but not the only action.