[XAP]Bob wrote: 13 Jan 2025, 1:00pm
There are a number of perverse market conditions at the moment, which we could, and should remove/rework to give everyone cheaper and more intelligent supply, as well as incentivise transitioning away from fossil fuel use as much as possible.
Is there much pressure to rebalance these conditions, or are too many political party donors benefitting from the high bills?
There is a reasonable amount of pressure - because some of the basic things that would help are pretty easy to legislate, and would result in everyone having lower bills.
The simplest thing would be to regionalise energy pricing - it's a purely administrative limitation, and it's hurting every region in the country. Greg Jackson states Scotland would end up with the cheapest power in Europe, and every other region would have cheaper energy as well.
Shifting levies onto gas rather than electricity would be a different change, but it is still purely administrative - it would rebalance the incentives to move people away from fossil fuels. At the moment the incentives are disproportionally applied to electricity, which artificially incentivises remaining on gas.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way.No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse. There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Presumably vested interests are delaying changes, then. I’m not at all convinced energy prices will fall so much in Britain no matter how much change there is in proving mechanisms - the private sector has too many fingers in the pie.
I was warned at some point by 2030 prices would have tripled, disconnecting from the grid is now pretty much a certainty over the next 15 years, I foresee further well above inflation rises yet to come.
[XAP]Bob wrote: 14 Jan 2025, 9:55am
There is a reasonable amount of pressure - because some of the basic things that would help are pretty easy to legislate, and would result in everyone having lower bills.
I don't see that as desirable at all, what's needed is some form of progressive charging system so that it's affordable to use a sustainable amount of fuel, and prohibitively expensive to use more.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
[XAP]Bob wrote: 14 Jan 2025, 9:55am
There is a reasonable amount of pressure - because some of the basic things that would help are pretty easy to legislate, and would result in everyone having lower bills.
I don't see that as desirable at all, what's needed is some form of progressive charging system so that it's affordable to use a sustainable amount of fuel, and prohibitively expensive to use more.
Politically it's definitely a pressure.
Progressive charging would help a different target, but it's still a "capital investment wins" scenario, which doesn't actually help the least well off.
You absolutely don't want to make it more expensive to use more electricity "because you're using more" without *what* you're using it for being taken into account... there is a difference between someone using electricity as a replacement for gas/petrol/diesel and someone using electricity for whatever it is you consider profligate.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way.No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse. There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
[XAP]Bob wrote: 14 Jan 2025, 9:55am
There is a reasonable amount of pressure - because some of the basic things that would help are pretty easy to legislate, and would result in everyone having lower bills.
I don't see that as desirable at all, what's needed is some form of progressive charging system so that it's affordable to use a sustainable amount of fuel, and prohibitively expensive to use more.
Politically it's definitely a pressure.
Progressive charging would help a different target, but it's still a "capital investment wins" scenario, which doesn't actually help the least well off.
You absolutely don't want to make it more expensive to use more electricity "because you're using more" without *what* you're using it for being taken into account... there is a difference between someone using electricity as a replacement for gas/petrol/diesel and someone using electricity for whatever it is you consider profligate.
If you measure total energy consumption it will go down when switching from a boiler to a heat pump even if electricity goes up, and if you don't whittle fuel bills down to the absolute minimum there'll be money to subsidise capital investment in insulation. If people choose to use their allowance on fairy lights draped around the house rather than heating, they're free to do so but won't have much room to complain they're cold.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't see that as desirable at all, what's needed is some form of progressive charging system so that it's affordable to use a sustainable amount of fuel, and prohibitively expensive to use more.
Politically it's definitely a pressure.
Progressive charging would help a different target, but it's still a "capital investment wins" scenario, which doesn't actually help the least well off.
You absolutely don't want to make it more expensive to use more electricity "because you're using more" without *what* you're using it for being taken into account... there is a difference between someone using electricity as a replacement for gas/petrol/diesel and someone using electricity for whatever it is you consider profligate.
If you measure total energy consumption it will go down when switching from a boiler to a heat pump even if electricity goes up, and if you don't whittle fuel bills down to the absolute minimum there'll be money to subsidise capital investment in insulation. If people choose to use their allowance on fairy lights draped around the house rather than heating, they're free to do so but won't have much room to complain they're cold.
Fairy lights vs heating... really?
Do you have any idea how much energy different things need?
A set of fairy lights might be 8w (that's what my Christmas lights use), which won't even make a snippet of a dent in any heating load.
As to "whittling fuel down to a minimum to afford insulation"... that's more #vimesboots thinking I'm afraid...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way.No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse. There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Have we plenty to learn from Scandinavians, or is it that English circumstances are so different that how we approach such fundamentals as heating our home is best, for us? Many (most?) Swedes and Danes have district heating systems piping hot water into their homes at affordable prices, with no concerns for installation, maintenance and repair of boilers or heat pumps on top of high energy prices.
Biospace wrote: 2 Apr 2025, 12:26pm
Have we plenty to learn from Scandinavians, or is it that English circumstances are so different that how we approach such fundamentals as heating our home is best, for us? Many (most?) Swedes and Danes have district heating systems piping hot water into their homes at affordable prices, with no concerns for installation, maintenance and repair of boilers or heat pumps on top of high energy prices.
Biospace wrote: 2 Apr 2025, 12:26pm
Have we plenty to learn from Scandinavians, or is it that English circumstances are so different that how we approach such fundamentals as heating our home is best, for us? Many (most?) Swedes and Danes have district heating systems piping hot water into their homes at affordable prices, with no concerns for installation, maintenance and repair of boilers or heat pumps on top of high energy prices.
not so simple I fear.
There are some folks in south London facing crippling bills because of district heating systems.
Trust the UK to mess it up. Is it the usual of a private operator extracting profit, a public operator not getting the best deal for users, or something else?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Biospace wrote: 2 Apr 2025, 12:26pm
Have we plenty to learn from Scandinavians, or is it that English circumstances are so different that how we approach such fundamentals as heating our home is best, for us? Many (most?) Swedes and Danes have district heating systems piping hot water into their homes at affordable prices, with no concerns for installation, maintenance and repair of boilers or heat pumps on top of high energy prices.
not so simple I fear.
There are some folks in south London facing crippling bills because of district heating systems.
Trust the UK to mess it up. Is it the usual of a private operator extracting profit, a public operator not getting the best deal for users, or something else?
I don't know - I'd have to research it - I did see an article quite recently.
Will post if I find/come across.
The roots of those schemes definitely go back a long way to the age of proper social housing.
The energy market has of course changed massively in the meantime.
Not sure what your generalised dig at the UK is about.
Luckily I have control of my own system and use minimal heating.
So it's a public operator, Lambeth Council, not getting a good deal for customers, including not rewarding reduced energy use, combined with an error by national government in classifying it as a commercial system not subject to the price cap.
The 'generalised dig at the UK' is that this country often seems to refuse to learn from other countries by giving 'not invented here' reasons, and a gloomy 'won't do' attitude, both of which are on show in that example.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Biospace wrote: 2 Apr 2025, 12:26pm
Have we plenty to learn from Scandinavians, or is it that English circumstances are so different that how we approach such fundamentals as heating our home is best, for us? Many (most?) Swedes and Danes have district heating systems piping hot water into their homes at affordable prices, with no concerns for installation, maintenance and repair of boilers or heat pumps on top of high energy prices.
That is not quite correct. Perhaps in larger municipalities, district heating is common, but for most of rural Sweden and indeed the smaller villages and towns, it's heat pumps all the way.
I don't know anyone or of anyone with fossil fuel heating. I also don't know anybody who is installing new heating systems that are not heat pumps. Even pellet-based systems are regarded as old fashioned and outmoded.
If your business relies on fossil fuels, your supply probably has several points of failure. Safer to make and store electricity from your own renewable capture equipment.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Well, couldn't you just see that one coming a mile off, it's not as if we haven't already had decades of it with cavity insulation and CIGA. My guess is that the next one will be heat pumps. They may be a mature technology in Scandinavia where they have decades of experience and a competent workforce, but with fewer trained installers and a market awash in government subsidies I reckon it'll just turn into another feeding frenzy for the sharks.
It'll all be fixed free of charge they say, well lets wait and see if that in itself becomes another gravy train for the cowboys. I wonder who'll get to decide what 'fixed' means, and who's deemed competent to verify it.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
