A.i in public services

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PDQ Mobile
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by PDQ Mobile »

cycle tramp wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 7:06am Yes you have done, indeed reading from your posts it feels that you have at least a personal dislike for your council - but strangely, not your councillor. Did you vote for them?

Having worked on the telephones for road repairs, my quote which you used in the above post, was based on personal experience. You said that it was 'not right at all and that you would see truth told' - but failed to give any reason for your own statement. What is your understanding of the situation?

At this stage, if I was still working, is to suggest that you raise an official complaint about the situation, to the council.

Again, if the councillor sees this problem evert day, the question remains, given that they are a councillor and have powers to table meetings and agendas, and no doubt speak with other councillors, what are they doing about it?
Dislike?
Whatever gave you that impression.

It is true to say I think the Highways Dept are incompetent, inefficient and waste lots of money though.

You must ask the councillor fellow himself as to why such a problem continues, year after year.
He knows about it, sees the grid every day- it's but 30 yds from his front door!

It's probably considered easier just to apply salt, cost not being a factor.
But it is the economics of the madhouse.

Perhaps I'll go clear the grid today!!
But I'll need to take the car to carry the tools.
And no-one else will follow my example, that is a lesson I have learned.

The problem of under maintenance of small roads is rife, it would seem.
Quite near at hand they have a novel solution; "Pothole Tours"!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62q74xyq15o
gbnz
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by gbnz »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 8:56am
It is true to say I think the Highways Dept are incompetent, inefficient and waste lots of money though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62q74xyq15o
Many Public Services ?

From an Operational Management background, I always found it bizarre, that at an extreme, I'd dispose of 75% of a TUPE transferred operational workforce under a contractual arrangement & then achieve levels of operational effectiveness which had never been known

But had 5yr's directly managing Operational systems, directly within the Public Sector, a few years back ?

I effectively had, 1-2 Hr's of genuine work a week, could stretch it out to 4-5 Hr's by having loads of meetings & travel. Found myself in the incredible position, of having to appoint an incredibly effective deputy to a post - I knew even during the interview, that it'd be stretching it to say the post had anymore than 1.5 Hr's work a week, associated with it (Nb. Managing it privately, would say, perhaps 30 minutes a week), it was embarrassing beyond belief, to have to appoint an incredibly effective individual, to a non existent job, due to public sector realities. How such managed to stay for 2.5yrs, I lasted 2 yr's prior to being "reduced" to half a week, but being put back on a full time basis, was too much (Nb. Back to full time? I'd made a joke about not liking the small cottage I'd downsized to. Rationale for my being put back into a full time role, to give me some "money". Had to leave, forced a redundancy)

But had just returned from 12 months on tour / backpacking, so being paid a a decent salary for doing.......? Public Sector employment does employ a surreal rationale at heart, "we employ, therefore employees must have something to do, therefore they must be over worked, therefore we must have more staff, therefore we must be under funded, whilst often ensuring that even basic elements of service can't be provided I.e. a toilet roll manager, may not have the authority to buy or fit toilet rolls, never mind appointing an individual to fill soap dispensers, which must therefore be filled by a contractor, therefore............
cycle tramp
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by cycle tramp »

gbnz wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 9:17am
PDQ Mobile wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 8:56am
It is true to say I think the Highways Dept are incompetent, inefficient and waste lots of money though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62q74xyq15o
Many Public Services ?

From an Operational Management background, I always found it bizarre, that at an extreme, I'd dispose of 75% of a TUPE transferred operational workforce under a contractual arrangement & then achieve levels of operational effectiveness which had never been known

But had 5yr's directly managing Operational systems, directly within the Public Sector, a few years back ?

I effectively had, 1-2 Hr's of genuine work a week, could stretch it out to 4-5 Hr's by having loads of meetings & travel.
Are you prepared to say what your role was and in which department?
I'd be surprised if it was anything to do with housing, housing allocations or dealing with the homeless... likewise I'd be surprised if was anything to do with planning.. I doubt whether you were in either adult or child social services, because the last I heard they were drowning under their work load...
Unless you were working with the NHS or Highways England, I'm guessing you had an i.t or policy/performance or personnel or even perhaps finance role? Or perhaps democratic services?
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
cycle tramp
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by cycle tramp »

gbnz wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 9:17am
PDQ Mobile wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 8:56am
It is true to say I think the Highways Dept are incompetent, inefficient and waste lots of money though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62q74xyq15o
Many Public Services ?

Public Sector employment does employ a surreal rationale at heart, "we employ, therefore employees must have something to do, therefore they must be over worked, therefore we must have more staff, therefore we must be under funded, whilst often ensuring that even basic elements of service can't be provided I.e. a toilet roll manager, may not have the authority to buy or fit toilet rolls, never mind appointing an individual to fill soap dispensers, which must therefore be filled by a contractor, therefore............
Yeah... but equally there are a number of council staff, having to deal with calls like 'my daddy made me have a bath, when mummy went shopping and told me I had to be very brave while he made me his special girl....' on a depressingly regular basis.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
Nearholmer
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by Nearholmer »

This is rapidly turning into an unedifying “two legs good; four legs bad” exchange, which has actually got precious little to do with AI in the public sector.

On the original topic: my perception is that to some degree some public services are badly under-invested in terms of “tech”, partly because they’ve been starved of funds, so have to carry on being a penny-wise, pound-foolish, partly because some of the things they deal with present massive technical and ethical challenges, and partly because in the case of some local authorities they have been too small and fragmented to be able to act as effective clients (hopefully, making more unitary authorities might crack that one). Hence, in some cases their tech systems are a fair way behind the curve, let alone on the leading edge where advanced AI might usefully be exploited.

As a passing point, it’s worth remembering that “public services” covers a very wide field. A large part of my working life was with London Underground, a wholly public body, and one that makes use of some pretty advanced OT (operational technology) as well as IT, as do most metros. The picture across public services in terms of tech is very varied, especially if you consider the military to be part of it, which it technically is!
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mjr
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by mjr »

A new study has found that offloading cognitive functions to technology makes you less smart. Your intelligence is a muscle that needs to be exercised.
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/15/1/6

If government will be using AI more, are we risking getting stupider government? 😱
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
gbnz
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by gbnz »

cycle tramp wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 10:46am
Are you prepared to say what your role was and in which department?
I'd be surprised if it was anything to do with housing, housing allocations or dealing with the homeless... likewise I'd be surprised if was anything to do with planning.. I doubt whether you were in either adult or child social services, because the last I heard they were drowning under their work load...
Unless you were working with the NHS or Highways England, I'm guessing you had an i.t or policy/performance or personnel or even perhaps finance role? Or perhaps democratic services?
[/quote]

Oh yes, I was working within Housing, dealing with homeless people and allocations of social housing within my area, to those in need, regularly meeting with adult & child social services, in addition to the police. Obviously the police preferred coroners, as it's quick & easy

Obviously as social housing hasn't been built as such, for decades, individuals not on the housing list or who are homeless, aren't relevant. Just as systems are set up to ensure that well to do OAP's, living in property they own, get or complain about not getting cold weather payments, social housing groupings are very much that part of the population, who have something and are therefore worth something to established authorities.

That part of the population, who increasingly found it impossible to even rent a room in a shared house, aren't relevant, as they aren't an established grouping. A bizarre reality that such a huge proportion of the population, are effectively homeless, but have no voice ? Suppose riots must happen someday, hope the homeless riot after I've moved on :wink:
cycle tramp
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by cycle tramp »

gbnz wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 7:56pm
cycle tramp wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 10:46am
Are you prepared to say what your role was and in which department?
Oh yes, I was working within Housing, dealing with homeless people and allocations of social housing within my area, to those in need, regularly meeting with adult & child social services, in addition to the police. Obviously the police preferred coroners, as it's quick & easy.
Really? How did you find SWEP situations?
Last edited by cycle tramp on 17 Jan 2025, 8:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
cycle tramp
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by cycle tramp »

mjr wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 12:01pm A new study has found that offloading cognitive functions to technology makes you less smart. Your intelligence is a muscle that needs to be exercised.
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/15/1/6

If government will be using AI more, are we risking getting stupider government? 😱
I think the first almost A.i. systems were the Philips machines which using water would allow for accurate economic forecasting

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_Machine). I don't think it made economists any less intelligent. Perhaps if our politicans had access to them, they might encourage better decision making.
For me the danger of A.i exists when it moves away from helping to inform decisions to replacing the entire creative process, writing music, producing art, writing... because at point humanity would have lost its soul.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
gbnz
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by gbnz »

cycle tramp wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 8:11pm
Really? How did you find SWEP situations?
It's not really an issue, the critical factors were to ensure they didn't leave needles in doorways, or in neighbours doors/gates, keep their faeces in their bathroom area, was cheaper to keep the offspring in the "family".

Suppose a benefit of social housing, is the fact that such can be kept in their estates

(Nb. Coroners was always the best, quick, no questions, whereas bizarrely, even County, had a question once)
cycle tramp
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by cycle tramp »

gbnz wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 9:58pm
cycle tramp wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 8:11pm
Really? How did you find SWEP situations?
It's not really an issue, the critical factors were to ensure they didn't leave needles in doorways, or in neighbours doors/gates, keep their faeces in their bathroom area, was cheaper to keep the offspring in the "family".

Suppose a benefit of social housing, is the fact that such can be kept in their estates

(Nb. Coroners was always the best, quick, no questions, whereas bizarrely, County, had a question once)
Yeah, right.. SWEP isn't an issue? Seriously doubt you were a housing officer. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs-n-rtd-PI (motorhead: I don't believe a word)
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
gbnz
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by gbnz »

cycle tramp wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 10:01pm
Yeah, right.. SWEP isn't an issue? Seriously doubt you were a housing officer. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs-n-rtd-PI (motorhead: I don't believe a word)
[/quote]

This middle class charade., of mythical social housing, providing housing for those unlucky enough to require support :lol:

It's of no relevance whether you believe I have worked as a housing officer or not. I have, but's its a cycling forum
Last edited by gbnz on 18 Jan 2025, 10:12am, edited 1 time in total.
cycle tramp
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by cycle tramp »

...again, you've said nothing to convince me you had any professional involvement in housing or RSIs or SWEP. Both would have pushed up your work load by a considerable amount..
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
PDQ Mobile
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Nearholmer wrote: 17 Jan 2025, 11:36am This is rapidly turning into an unedifying “two legs good; four legs bad” exchange, which has actually got precious little to do with AI in the public sector.

On the original topic: my perception is that to some degree some public services are badly under-invested in terms of “tech”, partly because they’ve been starved of funds, so have to carry on being a penny-wise, pound-foolish, partly because some of the things they deal with present massive technical and ethical challenges, and partly because in the case of some local authorities they have been too small and fragmented to be able to act as effective clients (hopefully, making more unitary authorities might crack that one). Hence, in some cases their tech systems are a fair way behind the curve, let alone on the leading edge where advanced AI might usefully be exploited.

As a passing point, it’s worth remembering that “public services” covers a very wide field. A large part of my working life was with London Underground, a wholly public body, and one that makes use of some pretty advanced OT (operational technology) as well as IT, as do most metros. The picture across public services in terms of tech is very varied, especially if you consider the military to be part of it, which it technically is!
Yea, sorry about the brain drain!

But it, and the telephone rota are examples of areas which, IMHO, are not greatly benefitted by the investment in AI.
I think the money would be better spent on decent shovels!

As I said earlier, IMV, telephone helpline waiting times are longer now than they were 20 years ago.

The example of the drain locally, the cited link about "Pothole Tours" in East Wales( clearly partly caused simply by poor culvert/drain maintenance, see pics), are just places where AI is of no use.

They are simple problems that require practical hands-on solutions.

While I accept the point about railways and metros, in that a certain computerisation is helpful, it is not AI as I understand the term though.
50 years ago trains still ran and were arguably at least as punctual as today.

This AI and other computer stuff are sensitive systems, often interconnected.
One small breakdown and the whole house of cards is destabilised.
Throw in the high cost of specialised IT workers, hi tech equipment, and the ever increasing energy demands of AI and I for one am deeply sceptical.

There is a great deal to be said, IMV, for simplicity.
If I might quote the great tractor inventor Harry Ferguson; "beauty in engineering is that which is simple, has no superfluous parts and serves exactly the purpose".
The bicycle springs to mind too.
Nearholmer
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Re: A.i in public services

Post by Nearholmer »

Simplicity in this context usually means “loosely coupled” in systems terms, and there are always limits on productivity in loosely-coupled systems, which can be transcended by tightening the coupling, which tends to be what ever-more-functional software-based systems do. The challenge is that it’s often quite difficult to design very tightly coupled systems, or even simply highly optimised systems, to “degrade gracefully” when some part of the system fails ……. it’s very easy to arrive at a system which is super-optimised, and works like a dream when fully functional, then flips to not working at all if part of it goes faulty. I’d be interested to know how gracefully wireless electronic shifting on bikes copes in that sense; I have a feeling that it might flip to complete non-functionality on failure.

Metros use some very highly developed operational tech, with some elements that edge towards AI for non-safety-vital functions - certainly “expert system” level, but the only things that I’m aware of that are used in a metro environment that might commonly be considered AI are in pattern recognition behind CCTV, which ca be used to aid passenger flow control on stations, for instance, and is I’m sure in some countries used for “security functions”. Running to time, BTW, is usually only a fraction of the challenge in metros; the bigger issue tends to be maximising throughput, and advanced software-based automation has lifted that very significantly (c30% in some cases) as compared with analogue automation, which itself was slightly better in those terms than manual operation (it was a lot more reliable, and cheaper to run than manual, of course).
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