A.i in public services

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Nearholmer
Posts: 5663
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: A.i in public services

Post by Nearholmer »

The trouble is, before “two factor authentication” (= getting a code texted to the phone, as well as doing all the usual stuff), stealing money from you account was simple and hassle free for criminals, with considerable risk to the account holder (and the bank, which in many cases “insures” the account holder against such theft).

FWIW, I find a lot of online services to be fairly badly-designed and annoying, but that hasn’t got anything to do with AI, and it’s by no means confined to public services (our local council, and SJS Cycles, excellent on-line; our local doctors’ surgery, and SportPursuit, truly rubbish on-line).

Anecdote: a project that I oversaw before I ceased full-time work involved designing apps to transfer a vast number of “paperwork” tasks to mobile on-line for use by staff (not customers). It taught me what a hugely difficult job it is to design apps that are easy and intuitive for all of the users, because individuals approach asks, and view things differently, from one-another. We initially had a guy who’d led similar work for a police force managing that element of the project, but while he was technically excellent he frankly didn’t have the right touch with our staff, and I had to bring in a (ruddy expensive!) women who was brilliant at engaging staff. On paper, her method appeared to take longer, but in practice it was quicker, because all the time she got everyone to put into understanding precisely how staff approached tasks led to an “almost right first time” delivery.
cycle tramp
Posts: 4616
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by cycle tramp »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 25 Jan 2025, 10:37pm
cycle tramp wrote: 25 Jan 2025, 10:12pm
PDQ Mobile wrote: 25 Jan 2025, 9:13pm
I just tried to book a car park!
I fill in all the details correctly but the final payment screen now says my bank requires an additional level of security.
It's not very big money.
I do not know how to do this, so I am frustrated until I get to my bank on Monday. Luckily still have one!!
So your bank will either send you a code by text, that you have to type into the payment screen, or you may have an app on your phone to active, or they'll send you a code by email that you'll have to type in...

Being personally frustrated with technology doesn't autonatically devalue its function or merit.
Yes it does.
It should be simple and hassle free.
And hopefully lack risk.
None of these apply any more.
I just want to pay for a service.
The whole time consuming filling in of all the stuff and then being unable to complete is a waste of mostly my time.

I really don't need or want it.
And I certainly don't want a banking "app" or internet banking.
But, other people do. It's like complaining that disc brakes shouldn't be on bicycles because you can't repair them by the roadside - it's a perfectly valid reason if you yourself can't, but it shouldn't apply to ever bicycle ever made.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
djnotts
Posts: 3587
Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: A.i in public services

Post by djnotts »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 25 Jan 2025, 9:13pm .......
....

I just tried to book a car park!
I fill in all the details correctly but the final payment screen now says my bank requires an additional level of security.
It's not very big money.
I do not know how to do this, so I am frustrated until I get to my bank on Monday. Luckily still have one!!
.......
The key is "Luckily" and "still". The Banks are determined to end all possibility of the majority of people, especially those who find using the on-line stuff difficult for physical and/or mental reasons, accessing a brach.

Branches are closing at an ever increasing rate.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4918
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Nearholmer wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 7:42am The trouble is, before “two factor authentication” (= getting a code texted to the phone, as well as doing all the usual stuff), stealing money from you account was simple and hassle free for criminals, with considerable risk to the account holder (and the bank, which in many cases “insures” the account holder against such theft).

FWIW, I find a lot of online services to be fairly badly-designed and annoying, but that hasn’t got anything to do with AI, and it’s by no means confined to public services (our local council, and SJS Cycles, excellent on-line; our local doctors’ surgery, and SportPursuit, truly rubbish on-line).

Anecdote: a project that I oversaw before I ceased full-time work involved designing apps to transfer a vast number of “paperwork” tasks to mobile on-line for use by staff (not customers). It taught me what a hugely difficult job it is to design apps that are easy and intuitive for all of the users, because individuals approach asks, and view things differently, from one-another. We initially had a guy who’d led similar work for a police force managing that element of the project, but while he was technically excellent he frankly didn’t have the right touch with our staff, and I had to bring in a (ruddy expensive!) women who was brilliant at engaging staff. On paper, her method appeared to take longer, but in practice it was quicker, because all the time she got everyone to put into understanding precisely how staff approached tasks led to an “almost right first time” delivery.
So my problem here is partly that I don't buy much online.
I have changed my phone in the last couple of years including the number.
This does happen!
(("3" had become an over techy provider and had stopped "free roaming".)
(Tesco Mobile, by the way, are much better))

Anyway as far as I know my bank have the new number but they haven't updated it into the "two factor" side of things.
The bank used to have another system whereby I used to have a 6 digit code and verification required me to know 2 random ones.
That seems to have changed?

I have bought the odd thing in those two years and not been asked for the "two factor" stuff, so there IS an element of AI at work here, IMV.

Additionally, as those 2022 crime figures show, it doesn't appear to have stemmed the rise in internet/computer fraud.
Much of it never solved/prosecuted.
Meanwhile a 78 year old female climate protester gets 20 more days in prison because the authorities cant find some sort of hi- tech device that fits her.
Something's wrong.

I note your stating about how expensive it is to implement this stuff.
It is over-complex and over priced, you are right.

And at the same time manages to be often grossly inefficient.
It renders many of us poorer (time and money) and more frustrated, and THAT is not beneficial to a well functioning social society.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4918
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by PDQ Mobile »

cycle tramp wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 8:42am
PDQ Mobile wrote: 25 Jan 2025, 10:37pm
cycle tramp wrote: 25 Jan 2025, 10:12pm

So your bank will either send you a code by text, that you have to type into the payment screen, or you may have an app on your phone to active, or they'll send you a code by email that you'll have to type in...

Being personally frustrated with technology doesn't autonatically devalue its function or merit.
Yes it does.
It should be simple and hassle free.
And hopefully lack risk.
None of these apply any more.
I just want to pay for a service.
The whole time consuming filling in of all the stuff and then being unable to complete is a waste of mostly my time.

I really don't need or want it.
And I certainly don't want a banking "app" or internet banking.
But, other people do. It's like complaining that disc brakes shouldn't be on bicycles because you can't repair them by the roadside - it's a perfectly valid reason if you yourself can't, but it shouldn't apply to ever bicycle ever made.
Who are these "other people"?

Most folk I come into contact with think much of internet and digital stuff is now become a frustrating PITA.
People want high street banks.
And paying by cash is a cheaper option.

It's all costing us ordinary folk dear, that is certain, being literally FORCED to buy new devices and spend precious time updating software stuff that is not very old.

And pay expensive folk who work in "IT".
Instead of fixing potholes!

You, sir, never replied to my earlier inquiry as to whether you have employment in the sphere?
I therefore infer you have vested interest in promoting it.
And seem rather prickly about alternative views.
Nearholmer
Posts: 5663
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: A.i in public services

Post by Nearholmer »

I note your stating about how expensive it is to implement this stuff.
It is over-complex and over priced, you are right.
Not what I said, really.

What I actually said was that we had to pay one individual highly to get the job done well. No different from finding say, a good carpenter, or a person who makes laying carpets look a doddle. People who are exceptionally good at doing in-demand things tend to come at high hourly rates, but they often do well in an hour what others do poorly in three.

The job wasn’t “expensive”, because of the savings we could make by doing it; the payback period was actually very short.

But, I can appreciate that the ever-expanding, and ever-changing state of consumer-facing “tech” can be an absolute bngger to keep up with. My elderly mother steers clear of a lot of it for that reason; I’m sort of 80% OK with it, but get lost in applications that I only use rarely; and, my children think it’s all totally simple!

Im a huge fan of the banking app I use, incidentally. It’s infinitely more convenient and functional than having to go to a physical bank. Definitely among the better apps IMO.
cycle tramp
Posts: 4616
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by cycle tramp »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 11:07am You, sir, never replied to my earlier inquiry as to whether you have employment in the sphere?
I therefore infer you have vested interest in promoting it.
And seem rather prickly about alternative views.
To be fair, I had already answered this question the very start of my thread, for those who had bothered to look...I have clearly stated stated that when I have been working for the local authorities, I have done so as someone who answers the phone... Which meant that I've first hand experiences of the anger frustration and disappointment of residents wishes not being met, as well as the anger, frustration and eventual burn our of back office staff trying to achieve the impossible with llimited budgets and staff numbers.. the reason why I l'm in favour of A.i bring brought into council services is because it offers efficiency opportunities to council services at a minimum cost... even better we may make some money from it, as a nation.

Your alternative views of employing more people, at a time when taxes need to be cut simply do not make any sense - you have already complained about having to pay 35 pounds for you road tax... and your solutions involve employment of more persons without a known improvement in services.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 26 Jan 2025, 5:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
the snail
Posts: 417
Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by the snail »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 11:07am ...
People want high street banks.
And paying by cash is a cheaper option.

...
I suspect like me, most people rarely set foot in a bank branch. I only go there if someone pays me by cheque (PITA). Paying by cash is not cheaper than paying by card or bank transfer, and the bank may charge you for cash transactions - I think businesses have to pay for these services.
cycle tramp
Posts: 4616
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by cycle tramp »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 11:07am
Most folk I come into contact with think much of internet and digital stuff is now become a frustrating PITA.
People want high street banks.
And paying by cash is a cheaper option.
I suspect that is due to the fact that you appear to have a unique ability to fail to appreciate any views which are different from your own, and as such people who hold these other views tend to either not speak them or disassociate themselves.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4918
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by PDQ Mobile »

the snail wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 4:59pm
PDQ Mobile wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 11:07am ...
People want high street banks.
And paying by cash is a cheaper option.

...
I suspect like me, most people rarely set foot in a bank branch. I only go there if someone pays me by cheque (PITA). Paying by cash is not cheaper than paying by card or bank transfer, and the bank may charge you for cash transactions - I think businesses have to pay for these services.
Try going abroad and paying with a card.
It costs me dear.
And I use cash where I can.

As for the high street banks, the instance I cited above where I need help/advice with a card payment issue is just where I am so glad to go and see someone in person rather than wait for a telephone helpline.
Often for ages.
And then be faced with a call centre somewhere far off with a difficult dialect to understand and a poor line.

I prefer the local branch every time.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4918
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by PDQ Mobile »

cycle tramp wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 5:05pm
PDQ Mobile wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 11:07am
Most folk I come into contact with think much of internet and digital stuff is now become a frustrating PITA.
People want high street banks.
And paying by cash is a cheaper option.
I suspect that is due to the fact that you appear to have a unique ability to fail to appreciate any views which are different from your own, and as such people who hold these other views tend to either not speak them or disassociate themselves.
It's nice to be an individual!
I am actually friendlier and more helpful than AI.

It is however true that many of us country folk, or at least those of my acquaintance, find the increasing complexity and intrusion of today's internet a right royal PITA.

I also know a few urban folk who have expressed similar frustrations.
I am not as alone as you infer.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4918
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Nearholmer wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 1:20pm
I note your stating about how expensive it is to implement this stuff.
It is over-complex and over priced, you are right.
Not what I said, really.

What I actually said was that we had to pay one individual highly to get the job done well. No different from finding say, a good carpenter, or a person who makes laying carpets look a doddle. People who are exceptionally good at doing in-demand things tend to come at high hourly rates, but they often do well in an hour what others do poorly in three.

The job wasn’t “expensive”, because of the savings we could make by doing it; the payback period was actually very short.

But, I can appreciate that the ever-expanding, and ever-changing state of consumer-facing “tech” can be an absolute bngger to keep up with. My elderly mother steers clear of a lot of it for that reason; I’m sort of 80% OK with it, but get lost in applications that I only use rarely; and, my children think it’s all totally simple!

Im a huge fan of the banking app I use, incidentally. It’s infinitely more convenient and functional than having to go to a physical bank. Definitely among the better apps IMO.
The main problem with the banking app is, IMV, loss or theft of a device.
Then all the "second level" security becomes pretty worthless?

I did try to get to grips with the "tech" quite late in life.
I wasn't bad at "files and folders"etc.
Paying for stuff went ok.
Never had a problem.

But things, both devices and software, ageing and becoming suddenly unuseable are problematic.

I simply question the economics of some of it.

My view is, as those first contributions to the thread suggested, that the potholes are now worse, infrastructure maintenance is cut to the bone and helpline waiting times are longer.
That is my concrete personal experience.
Just that.

I also see ever more sophisticated local authority websites.
They broadly make me use my time instead stuff that was the remit of the employees of the council.
Yet Council Tax has reached really high levels and proportions of one's income.

Throw in some foreign algorithmic political stuff/interference and the amount of jadedness reaches bursting point.

But hey ho.
There are still some rewarding simple pleasures to had.
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 26 Jan 2025, 8:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4918
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by PDQ Mobile »

cycle tramp wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 4:48pm
Your alternative views of employing more people, at a time when taxes need to be cut simply do not make any sense - you have already complained about having to pay 35 pounds for you road tax... and your solutions involve employment of more persons without a known improvement in services.
We all skip read stuff it would seem.
I said I pay more than ten times that amount for a 1600cc car.
the snail
Posts: 417
Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by the snail »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 6:00pm ...
Try going abroad and paying with a card.
It costs me dear.
And I use cash where I can.

...
That depends where you get your cash and which card you use. Last year I used my bank card in Greece and Turkey, I don't think the cost was much different to the exchange fees, and a lot more convenient than trying to work out foreign notes and coins.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4918
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: A.i in public services

Post by PDQ Mobile »

the snail wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 10:46pm
PDQ Mobile wrote: 26 Jan 2025, 6:00pm ...
Try going abroad and paying with a card.
It costs me dear.
And I use cash where I can.

...
That depends where you get your cash and which card you use. Last year I used my bank card in Greece and Turkey, I don't think the cost was much different to the exchange fees, and a lot more convenient than trying to work out foreign notes and coins.
I am sure you are right.
And if your happy that's cool as a cucumber.

I am less happy and comfortable (I guess you realise!!).

I only have one card and they charge quite a bit on non-Stirling transactions.
Plus crap exchange rates.

I carry cash and I think it preferable and cheaper.

Had the card blocked once abroad too, just AI seeing an unusual transaction!!
Was a pain to buy fuel in France (ever fewer garages take cash there) without it.
Bit of cash came in well handy!

Never travel without cash and body filler!
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