German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
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Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
The case for compulsory re-testing at reducing intervals as age marches on is pretty compelling, but it would be pretty unpopular, so presumably a matter of political judgement. My wager is that the prospect of a retest would actually cause people to think very hard, and that many would then make good decisions and not apply once they knew in their hearts that they’d likely fail.
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Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
Absolutely - and to be fair, I'm not sure that I could 100% trust myself in judging my own ability to drive as I get older. My memory may be utterly useless by then, so I would have nothing to compare my current driving with, and my judgement may be effected by the slow onset of dementia.axel_knutt wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 6:20pmBut that's not the point I was answering, he was begging the question in presuming that he is in a position to judge his own ability, regardless of whether it's impaired by age or anything else.Galactic wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 1:43pm (Perhaps this thread ought to have a title change?)
I think the issue at hand is not so much age (although age is likely to be the biggest factor), but ability.axel_knutt wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 12:57pm This is begging the question, the point at issue is what happens if and when age impairs the ability to judge what's safe.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
axel_knutt wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 12:57pmANTONISH wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 9:59am
Which seems to be the general attitude: people won't voluntarily give up driving come hell or high water. The absence of adequate public transport doesn't prove medical fitness to drive.
I didn't say I wouldn't give up driving "come hell or high water" - nor would I keep driving if I wasn't satisfied of my competence to do so safely. I can only go by my current experience.
On occasion I drive in France and Belgium and I have no difficulty adopting.
OTOH my father gave up driving after he was involved in a minor collision (his fault) - TBH I always considered him an impatient driver ( he felt I was too cautious ).
He was seventy nine at the time and obviously he tended towards your line of thought as he said to me "well I'm nearly eighty"
At some time I will have to stop driving which will create difficulties for me as the local bus service is pretty poor (infrequent, last bus home at 1600 and nothing on Sunday).
Your comment " the absence of public transport doesn't prove medical fitness to drive " is so obvious that I wonder why you have introduced it.
Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
Yes fair enough, I accept my assertion about the issue at hand went beyond the point you were making. I had just gone another step in my mind, asking whether that was the only factor, and my mind moved faster than my fingers could explain my chain of thoughts.axel_knutt wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 6:20pmBut that's not the point I was answering, he was begging the question in presuming that he is in a position to judge his own ability, regardless of whether it's impaired by age or anything else.Galactic wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 1:43pm (Perhaps this thread ought to have a title change?)
I think the issue at hand is not so much age (although age is likely to be the biggest factor), but ability.axel_knutt wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 12:57pm This is begging the question, the point at issue is what happens if and when age impairs the ability to judge what's safe.
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Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
You introduced availability of public transport, as if that were a justification for driving whilst unfit.ANTONISH wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 9:59am I'm 83 and still driving - I intend to keep doing so unless there is a dramatic improvement in public transport.
axel_knutt wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 12:57pm Which seems to be the general attitude: people won't voluntarily give up driving come hell or high water. The absence of adequate public transport doesn't prove medical fitness to drive.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
I introduced it as a reason for why I drive, in no way did I suggest that I would continue to drive if unfit - you introduced the idea of me being unfit - plus the idea of an arbitrary age limit.axel_knutt wrote: ↑3 Feb 2025, 4:17pmYou introduced availability of public transport, as if that were a justification for driving whilst unfit.ANTONISH wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 9:59am I'm 83 and still driving - I intend to keep doing so unless there is a dramatic improvement in public transport.
axel_knutt wrote: ↑29 Jan 2025, 12:57pm Which seems to be the general attitude: people won't voluntarily give up driving come hell or high water. The absence of adequate public transport doesn't prove medical fitness to drive.
I'm not that enamoured of driving - prefer train travel - but I'm afraid the car is a default option.
Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
A "default option" ? As defined by the fact that you choose to make it your default option . & your preferences for trains. Of two OAP's I know
1. One much prefers using the bus......... the individual in their 80's, lives 3-4 minutes walk from the main bus stop, last travelled on a bus 5-6yrs ago (Nb. Once ?), previously, perhaps back in 1981-1982. Once. That OAP chooses to drive weekly, had a FOC bus pass for a Nr quarter of a century
2. The second loves trains.......perhaps caught a train back in the 1960's, an individual in their 80's, chooses to drive 2 miles to buy a newspaper, rather than walk the few hundred feet to the paper shop (Nb. The road involving 5-6 times the distance, to get to the same destination)
One would have thought that both, capable of walking up mountains or whatever, could walk those few hundred feet. No, like yourself they choose to drive, making driving their default option
I made it 200' into a 30 mile ride Monday, prior to an OAP almost getting me. Was pulled up, a good 10' behind an OAP's Audi, red light ahead. OAP of course, jammed the Audi into reverse, a swerve to the left, the right. Was saved by a pedestrian jumping into the road, banging on his window "STOP, STOP, you're going backwards, that cyclist.." Was impressed, the pedestrian only ever cycles a BSO mountain bike around the town centre, recognised him........obviously had the mindset of any cyclist, protecting us against OAP's, doing their driving
OAP seemed to find a forward gear, without the slightest sign of awareness, or probably the demonstrating the indifference routinely shown by motorists, drove off. An essential drive to buy a loaf of bread, you know "Sunday buses aren't very frequent". Surely they should be obliged to give the licence back and/or have to take a driving test, make use of that FOC bus pass
It's not even as if OAP's have to renew their bus pass........ I had an essential hospital appointment yesterday, with a partial disability, obviously I used my feet & buses, like OAPS have all the time in the world, would have used a train if the mainline trains had been running, to do the 74 mile round journey. Last minute awareness the mainline trains were taking 1.5 Hr's to do a 20 minute journey, trains rare, tickets several times the normal price...........would have preferred the bicycle, but it's 50/50 whether I would have made the 37 miles to the hospital in time, with the strong winds, the initial several miles down the A1 dual carriageway, is very exposed (Nb. Least via "direct action" ensured the several week saga of my disabled bus pass being renewed, was concluded. It's surreal, OAP's don't even have to do that)
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Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
Not all car drivers are idiots
Not all cyclists totally disregard the Highway Code
Not all OAPs are incapable of driving safely
Not all cyclists totally disregard the Highway Code
Not all OAPs are incapable of driving safely
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Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
Which is why a stringent, and frequent, compulsory test is needed to sort the sheep from the goats.
In an ideal world, we’d probably have re-tests every ten years until say 60yo, then every five years, decreasing by stages to annually. I’d like to see the tests incorporating simulator-time too, because I’m convinced that the issues as one gets older revolve around cognition/reaction times when presented with the unexpected, and if well-designed, simulator tests could possibly also pick-out the weakness of younger drivers, impatience, too.
This sort of stuff is routine for pilots, train drivers, and I think increasingly for ‘bus and HGV drivers, in fact for every safety-critical job I can think of, there is some sort of routine retest/assessment of competence.
In an ideal world, we’d probably have re-tests every ten years until say 60yo, then every five years, decreasing by stages to annually. I’d like to see the tests incorporating simulator-time too, because I’m convinced that the issues as one gets older revolve around cognition/reaction times when presented with the unexpected, and if well-designed, simulator tests could possibly also pick-out the weakness of younger drivers, impatience, too.
This sort of stuff is routine for pilots, train drivers, and I think increasingly for ‘bus and HGV drivers, in fact for every safety-critical job I can think of, there is some sort of routine retest/assessment of competence.
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Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
I would be the first to admit that all the above is true... but speaking in regards to my own future and physical decline, there is no denying that the risk of developing dementia (without being aware of it) the risk of a sudden seizure or heart attack may increase.Caver_Paul wrote: ↑5 Feb 2025, 9:39am Not all car drivers are idiots
Not all cyclists totally disregard the Highway Code
Not all OAPs are incapable of driving safely
By proposing my own unequivocal 'get off the road when I am 80'.. I have no other option to plan for the time when I can't drive. It is the only logical plan of action.
The idea that society affords me the freedom to drive until I am found unfit to do so, carries a risk to those for whom I share the road, because evidence suggests that I would have to injure, maim or kill before the state reaches that conclusion.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
gbnz wrote: ↑5 Feb 2025, 9:01amA "default option" ? As defined by the fact that you choose to make it your default option . & your preferences for trains. Of two OAP's I know
1. One much prefers using the bus......... the individual in their 80's, lives 3-4 minutes walk from the main bus stop, last travelled on a bus 5-6yrs ago (Nb. Once ?), previously, perhaps back in 1981-1982. Once. That OAP chooses to drive weekly, had a FOC bus pass for a Nr quarter of a century
2. The second loves trains.......perhaps caught a train back in the 1960's, an individual in their 80's, chooses to drive 2 miles to buy a newspaper, rather than walk the few hundred feet to the paper shop (Nb. The road involving 5-6 times the distance, to get to the same destination)
I have a very infrequent bus service. The bus stop is half a mile away and there is no shelter which isn't fun in rain. The last bus returns at 1600. I don't mind walking if I have the time and in the past I have walked the two miles+ to the station. Returning home from London I have usually missed the last bus and have to walk the two+ miles back home which in winter involves walking on muddy paths and an unlit road.
OTOH I can drive to the station and park my car so I have transport for getting home.
As for your experience of an OAP reversing into you I had the same with a "White van man" and on another occasion a middle aged woman who threw her car into reverse and came backwards at speed - I managed to get out of the way and a van had to do an emergency stop. I have witnessed drivers losing control of their vehicles in wet weather, driving too fast on narrow roads ( I've ended up in a ditch due to that while I was cycling).
There are many drivers who behave foolishly or badly on the roads some of whom are unlicensed and uninsured.
Should I become unfit to drive I will have to accept the situation and give up my licence - I don't see why that should depend on an arbitrary age limit.
Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
Bear in mind that we have an arbitrary MINIMUM age limit for driving. Seems to be an acceptable compromise for decades.
Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
[qu
I have a very infrequent bus service. The bus stop is half a mile away and there is no shelter which isn't fun in rain. The last bus returns at 1600. I don't mind walking if I have the time and in the past I have walked the two miles+ to the station. Returning home from London I have usually missed the last bus and have to walk the two+ miles back home which in winter involves walking on muddy paths and an unlit road......
Should I become unfit to drive I will have to accept the situation and give up my licence - I don't see why that should depend on an arbitrary age limit.
[/quote]
So your bus stop & railway station is close. Like OAP's, I've all the time in the world. So I've no issue with the 8 mile round walk to the railway station, though is a nuisance if I have to catch one of the last buses - depending on route, they stop 9.75, 10.5 or 11.75 miles away. There is a bus stop 5 miles into the 9.75 walk & so it always provides a break from wind / rain.
But OAP's and driving ? Surely given that such haven't any actual need to drive, it's bizarre that such are allowed to drive, given the risk they present and grotesque levels of pollution such voluntarily generate.
I have a very infrequent bus service. The bus stop is half a mile away and there is no shelter which isn't fun in rain. The last bus returns at 1600. I don't mind walking if I have the time and in the past I have walked the two miles+ to the station. Returning home from London I have usually missed the last bus and have to walk the two+ miles back home which in winter involves walking on muddy paths and an unlit road......
Should I become unfit to drive I will have to accept the situation and give up my licence - I don't see why that should depend on an arbitrary age limit.
[/quote]
So your bus stop & railway station is close. Like OAP's, I've all the time in the world. So I've no issue with the 8 mile round walk to the railway station, though is a nuisance if I have to catch one of the last buses - depending on route, they stop 9.75, 10.5 or 11.75 miles away. There is a bus stop 5 miles into the 9.75 walk & so it always provides a break from wind / rain.
But OAP's and driving ? Surely given that such haven't any actual need to drive, it's bizarre that such are allowed to drive, given the risk they present and grotesque levels of pollution such voluntarily generate.
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Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
Yeah, you're right it's arbitrary. But of it isn't, people will argue for extending it. You've only got to look at the latest Steve Coogan driving appeal to see the grounds of any potential appeal.
However it is a 'license to drive', rather than a 'right' and as such by imposing an arbitrary limit which can not be extended we effectively allow people to plan their lives without a driving licence over years, than than the sudden change of having it imposed immediately upon them.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
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Re: German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured
Well, yes it is an arbitrary age limit. If it helps my uncle passed a number of years ago at the age of 76, a friend of my partner (who at 75) has just had her driving licence revoked, due to eyesight issue. Some of us may not live to become eighty, or even to be still driving by then.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)