BSA three speed hub

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Brucey
Posts: 47197
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

BSA three speed hub

Post by Brucey »

The (not often seen) BSA 3s hub was made until 1956. Sheldon Brown has a page which reproduces instructions for overhauling a BSA three speed hub here;

https://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/bsahub.html

which is great but it doesn't explain how the hub works or how it came to be.

I didn't realise this until recently but the design is actually derived from the Sturmey Archer 'X' series hub. The 'X' series hub is ancient; in SA production it was replaced by the 'K' series hub in 1921, so for most of its production run the BSA hub was already an antique, more or less.

So how does it work? The fundamental principle is like most other SA 3s hubs; in gears 1 and 2 the driver drives the ring gear, and the drive is taken to the hubshell from the planet cage or the ring gear respectively. In gear 3 the driver drives the planet cage and the hubshell is driven from the ring gear.

However the way this is achieved is quite unlike other SA hubs; there is no obvious sliding clutch, and the overall result is NIG type operation.
With reference to the figure below (which is from the Sheldon Brown link above)
Image

Planet cage 'E' and Ring Gear 'F' constitute a subassembly and clip 'G' fits into F such that E is retained within F provided clip G is in place. This whole subassembly slides up and down the (enormously long) sun pinion and acts as the sliding clutch. There are three sets of pawls; part 'B' contains the low gear pawls (LGP); these operate somewhat like those in a K series hub. The other two sets of pawls are set in the RH end of part 'F', the ring gear. When the drive is taken from the ring gear to the hubshell (gears 2 and 3), the external high gear pawls 'S' (HGP) are used. The third set of (inwards facing) 'driver pawls' 'T' (DP) takes the drive from the driver to the ring gear, and are engaged in gear 1 and gear 2.

In the illustration you can see that the driver 'K' has some odd-shaped scallops in it; these are key to the operation of the gear, since they determine whether or not pawls DP and/or HGP can transfer drive or not.

- In gear 1 pawls DP engage with the driver but pawls HGP are defeated; either the scallops are not deep enough to allow pawls HGP to protrude, or (and I don't know which it is) the pawls cannot drive the dog ring 'V' because they are not yet far enough to the right . Drive is thus taken from the ring gear to the planet cage which then drives the hubshell via pawls LGP.

- In gear 2 pawls DP engage with the driver but in this position (with assy 'EFG' slightly rightwards) pawls HGP are allowed to engage with 'V' and give the direct drive gear 2. Pawls LGP would be overrun anyway, but at some point the movement of 'EFG' presumably disconnects the planet cage from these pawls.

- In gear 3 pawls DP are overrun and cannot transfer forwards drive. Meantime 'EFG' has slid rightwards far enough that the end of the driver 'K' engages with the planet cage directly, and pawls HGP are active (as in gear 2) so drive the hubshell at an increased speed vs the planet cage.

The hub ought to give good NIG performance, although the pawls don't change mode in a step change so much as gradually; this means that if the gear is out of adjustment pawl tips are likely to be damaged. If the hub is driven backwards in top gear, there is the same problem as is seen in the later NIG SA hubs, i.e. that both the ring gear and the planet cage are connected to the driver and they are moving at different speeds. In the BSA/'X' the end of the driver has reverse faces which are angled, so the planet cage is forced leftwards in the event of reverse torque between the driver and the planet cage. Since the gear selector key is spring-loaded in both directions, the required movement ought to be possible.

So all in all, it is an interesting hub. It should be a deal stronger than most SA hubs; the slotted part of the axle is well to the left of the hub (so won't see high loads from chain tension) and the driver appears to be supported by ball bearings at both ends, which ought to make for better-managed loads in the hub too. Probably it was discontinued by SA for the usual sort of reason, i.e. that it was slightly more expensive to make than the hub which succeeded it.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
rjb
Posts: 8138
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by rjb »

With a screw on driver could one fit a block? How many speeds could it accommodate on the standard axle.?
Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X2, Raleigh 20 stowaway X2, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840, Giant Bowery, Apollo transition. :D
Sid Aluminium
Posts: 255
Joined: 26 Feb 2019, 7:38pm
Location: Beyond the edge of the wild

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by Sid Aluminium »

In 1908 a rider named Peck lowered the End-to-End record to 2 days, 22 hours and 42 minutes on a BSA bicycle using the BSA licensed-produced Sturmey X-Type hub - it appeared that Sturmey had been hoisted by their own petard.

Not to worry - a few weeks later Harry Green bested that by ~3 hours using the new Sturmey-Archer Type N Tri-Coaster. Green's record would stand for almost 21 years. I believe this is the only time the End-to-End record was captured using a coaster brake hub. I could be wrong.

Fun fact: The earliest models of BSA hub features planets running on ball bearings:

Screen Shot 2020-03-20 at 11.08.22 PM.png
Brucey
Posts: 47197
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by Brucey »

rjb wrote:With a screw on driver could one fit a block? How many speeds could it accommodate on the standard axle.?


I think the axles are all rather short on the RHS. However I'd expect to be able to squeeze at least three 3/32" sprockets in there, provided there is a reasonably free choice of chainline. One of the issues with this type of conversion is that the largest sprocket on most freewheels is set flush with the LH end of the screw thread mounting. To make best use of the available space, the largest sprocket often ought to be set to the left of that. In the case of the BSA hub I suspect that you would only be able to use freewheel bodies that have the mounting thread 'bored through'; I suspect that the end of the driver would clash with most freewheels that use a smaller diameter remover.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brucey
Posts: 47197
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by Brucey »

Sid Aluminium wrote: ….Fun fact: The earliest models of BSA hub features planets running on ball bearings....


that is an interesting picture because

a) like you say it shows the ball bearings (which were a feature of SA hubs until they were quietly omitted, ~ in the 1920s I think?)
b) it shows a (presumably LH threaded) retaining ring in the left side of the ring gear, whereas the illustration of the later hub shows the snap ring 'G' instead.
c) as shown it is in low gear; you can see that the low gear pawls don't even get a chance to engage when in the higher gears (so presumably no overrun ticking in gears 2 and 3)
d) you can see that the high gear pawls likewise don't get a chance to engage with the dog ring when in low gear; they are too far to the left.

SA published efficiency measurements of their hubs BITD (when they still had ball bearings on the planet gears, when the X series was current I think) and used them in their promotional material. The exact conditions of test are unknown, but both high and low gears were shown to be very efficient; I forget the exact numbers but IIRC something like 1.5% losses vs the direct drive gear. Without contact seals and with oil lubrication & ball bearings, there would be very low levels of static friction too, potentially making the exact conditions of test less important.

[edit; see p8 in 1908 catalogue herehttp://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/files/view-14.pdf. SA hubs with ball bearing pinions show additional losses (vs direct drive) of 1.8 and 1.5% in high and low gears . It is claimed that plain bearing planet pinions 'cost' an extra 3% losses in each gear, but it is likely that the conditions of test would affect that result more than with ball-bearings throughout .]

Interestingly there is enough 'meat' in current SA planet pinions to allow installation of a small roller bearing. It is something I plan to try at some point.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hoogerbooger
Posts: 786
Joined: 14 Jun 2009, 11:27am
Location: In Wales

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by hoogerbooger »

Been searching online and not so far found anything on sprocket removal for the BSA 3 speed, even the BSA service sheet seems to ignore.

It looks like a notched tool has to be placed in a vice and the removed driver placed upside down on top of it and somehow held in place so a chain whip can be used.

Not sure a 'standard' freewheel tool or a special BSA tool. I have measured the notched exert of the driver and wonder if anyone can advise on whether there is a notched tool out there that would fit.

Notched ring of Driver:
OD 31.68mm ( 1 1/4")
ID 26.4mm ( 1 3/64" is closest)
Notch length 6.24mm ( 1/4")
Attachments
20250212_131515.jpg
old fangled
Barrowman
Posts: 707
Joined: 8 Jan 2022, 6:35pm

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by Barrowman »

Sadly no such thing as a 'standard' freewheel remover for a '2 notch' freewheel.
And 2 notch freewheel removers are notorious for breaking the notches / pins in use.
I am in the West Midlands and I think I may have a suitable remover if you would like to borrow it
(Could post if not local) Not in the bike shed for a week or so so please be patient.

No knowledge of BSA hub gears , but have seen a few Hybrid Sturmey archer setups with Freewheels screwed on. (Some Sturmey do have a threaded driver ) Have also seen 2 and 3 speed Sturmey adaptors ( no freewheel element just static sprockets) .
Brucey
Posts: 47197
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by Brucey »

I think the two-pronged tool required is somewhat larger than that for most freewheels, but not so large as those required for freewheels of the 'through bore' design. I therefore don't hold out much hope that an extant tool will fit, unless it is specifically designed for the purpose.

My suspicion is that you could easily make a very good tool for this job using an old socket, specifically a spark plug socket, since that would be about the right diameter, plus it could reach over the axle. If this approach is viable, it should need just a few minute's work with an angle grinder.

The other thing that occurs to me is that it may be possible to securely hold the other end of the driver in a bench vice eg. using timber packing, thus obviating the need for a special tool altogether. If you intend to dismantle the hub anyway, this could be an attractive option.
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hoogerbooger
Posts: 786
Joined: 14 Jun 2009, 11:27am
Location: In Wales

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by hoogerbooger »

Noted. Thank you.

It will be dismantled in due course. So driver in vice with wood packing probably the safest thing to try......after soaking in penetrative oil; freezing; heating in oven; more oil and plenty of tapping of the sprocket with the back of a pin hammer. Most likely it won't work .....but shouldn't damage.
old fangled
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2424
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Brucey wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 10:03pm The (not often seen) BSA 3s hub .....
.... the overall result is NIG type operation....
Pethaps Sunrace Sturmey should have reinstated the X hub rather than the NIG AW?
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
Barrowman
Posts: 707
Joined: 8 Jan 2022, 6:35pm

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by Barrowman »

If memory serves the remover I have is quite a wide mouthed job ( it came with some other tools and I don't think I have ever used it in anger.

DIY job : Box Spanner ?
hoogerbooger
Posts: 786
Joined: 14 Jun 2009, 11:27am
Location: In Wales

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by hoogerbooger »

Barrowman wrote: 12 Feb 2025, 9:43pm If memory serves the remover I have is quite a wide mouthed job ( it came with some other tools and I don't think I have ever used it in anger.

DIY job : Box Spanner ?
Well if you find it and measure....& it's the right size you may have a world monopoly ! And a low profit business opportunity!
old fangled
Barrowman
Posts: 707
Joined: 8 Jan 2022, 6:35pm

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by Barrowman »

🤣
Brucey
Posts: 47197
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by Brucey »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 12 Feb 2025, 9:38pm....Perhaps Sunrace Sturmey should have reinstated the X hub rather than the NIG AW?
I think that would be seen as going backwards. The manufacturing costs would have been ruinous, and the inward-facing pawls would prohibit high speed running.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hoogerbooger
Posts: 786
Joined: 14 Jun 2009, 11:27am
Location: In Wales

Re: BSA three speed hub

Post by hoogerbooger »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 12 Feb 2025, 9:38pm
Brucey wrote: 20 Mar 2020, 10:03pm The (not often seen) BSA 3s hub .....
.... the overall result is NIG type operation....
Pethaps Sunrace Sturmey should have reinstated the X hub rather than the NIG AW?
I am hoping to get it running at some point to feel the difference with an AW. Based on Hadland's book it seems to have been a reliable and well made hub........but it's certainly trickier to dismantle/ service. Unlike the AW which, as Brucey has indicated, only requires a rock and a screwdriver to get into if something goes wrong.

Brucey's long post on the old non-NIG AW is I think very fair on the merits of the AW, and why non-NIG is as much a benefit in longevity as a worry. Looking at my K hubs and early AW's with NIG, the ring gear dogs and clutches have clearly not had an easy life.
old fangled
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