War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

[simonineaston]

I think largely that a lot of what we do at the mo' is to cover up our deep rooted fear that the end is nigh... which of course has never happened before.

[Nearholmer]

Yep, NATO-USA = bit of a weak-toothed tiger.

One of the multiple reasons for being super-wary of Trumpism is that it aligns so very closely with Putinism in terms of being vexed by the EU, and rather wishing that it would go away.

Im convinced that Trump will cede Europe to Russia if given half the chance, taking Canada, Greenland, and Mexico into his empire instead.

[Stevek76]

Putin already has attacked nato countries on multiple occasions. Sure not in the conventional military sense but when it comes to covert assassinations, infrastructure sabotage, hacking and subterfuge of democratic elections there's been plenty.

He probably won't directly invade the Baltics or similar but pulling the same nonsense he's done with Ukraine? Far more plausible, particularly if the US looks like it would be willing to find excuses to overlook matters.

A quick n dirty analysis suggests that to counter balance ending of USA support for Ukraine other current backers, incl UK, will have to double their spend.
Are UK taxpayers up for this? Germans? French?
Obviously smaller states nearer to Russia have no choice.

Well in the grand scale of taxes it's actually really not that much. For the UK it could be more than covered by the additional tax receipts generated by rejoining the EU. Manufacturing location makes a difference as well.

[Bonefishblues]

Did anyone see Newsnight last night? Mr Gorka is a thug, I thought Vic handled it with calmness in the face of ridiculous provocation.

[Nearholmer]

Western Europe won’t step up to the plate, because Russia and the MAGAts are well-on with the groundwork that will make it impossible for politicians who wish to defend liberal democracy to convince their electorates to do so.

Liberal democracy is a serious nuisance to oligarchs, plutocrats, and their political front-men, and huge amounts of money, time, and effort are being spent to get rid of it. Work ably assisted by coteries of useful idiots, charlatans, and fellow-travellers in every country, all hell-bent on reforming democracy out of existence for their own self-aggrandisement.

Listen to the meta-grumbling in this country, and you will hear increasing support for “strong man” politics, very carefully cultivated support, and very little real taste to spend, let alone physically fight, to defend democracy.

[pete75]

^ NATO minus USA a different matter. Without current US support Ukraine will lose, unless the rest of NATO fills the gap. Once Ukraine loses, other border states will be taken. Once Poland falls all further bets are off.

The Ukraine was doomed to lose from the start. All our help has done is prolong the war.

I can understand how someone who swallowed all the cold war propogand can think like you. The USSR has gone so you need another bogey man to frightne the kids with. It ain't gonna happen though.

[Nearholmer]

The Ukraine was doomed to lose from the start. All our help has done is prolong the war.

Isn’t that the point: to make biting-off bits of other people’s territory as costly as possible to the aggressor?

The alternative would seem to be to roll over immediately a boot crosses a border, teaching the aggressor that they can take with no pain, rather as happened with Crimea.

This isn’t neutral stuff, where Nice Mister Putin takes over and fosters the continuation of self determined democracy, it’s subjugate and exploit, in the age-old tradition of empire, and either you’re content with it, or not.

[reohn2]

Yep, NATO-USA = bit of a weak-toothed tiger.

One of the multiple reasons for being super-wary of Trumpism is that it aligns so very closely with Putinism in terms of being vexed by the EU, and rather wishing that it would go away.

Im convinced that Trump will cede Europe to Russia if given half the chance, taking Canada, Greenland, and Mexico into his empire instead.

I don't think you're far off the mark there,Trump is as much a threat to European and possibily world stability as Putin is.

[djnotts]

pete75: "I can understand how someone who swallowed all the cold war propogand can think like you. The USSR has gone so you need another bogey man to frightne the kids with. It ain't gonna happen though."

By education I'm a (marxist) historian, by belief a socialist. Cold War propaganda believer I was not. The class war is more than enough with which to frighten the kids. That the winning class is now wearing different political clothes doesn't change the adversaries. The varying and vying ruling classes are now simply all ultra capitalists.

[DaveReading]

Did anyone see Newsnight last night? Mr Gorka is a thug, I thought Vic handled it with calmness in the face of ridiculous provocation.

It was indeed a disgusting performance by Gorka. Hopefully he won't last any longer than he did (7 months) in the first Trump administration.

[reohn2]

Did anyone see Newsnight last night? Mr Gorka is a thug, I thought Vic handled it with calmness in the face of ridiculous provocation.

It was indeed a disgusting performance by Gorka. Hopefully he won't last any longer than he did (7 months) in the first Trump administration.

Just watched it on iPlayer,Yep,thug and Trump brown nosed follower.

[ket]

He, Gorka, stark contrast to the peace negotiator interviewed on C4 news same evening. Called Trump out and didn't mince her words. She reminded me of Gillian Tett's pithy response. A while ago Tett was asked to explain some financial obfuscations by another interviewee. "That's b*****ks" was her retort.

[djnotts]

Too little too late?
"The UK and EU countries must spend more on defence, with Europe facing an "existential question" even in the event of a negotiated peace in Ukraine, David Lammy has said.

The foreign secretary told the Munich Security Conference "Putin will not go away", and that, while it was positive 23 Nato countries were now spending at least 2% of their GDP on defence, "we all know we have to go upward".

He said the UK was "absolutely" committed to spending 2.5% and would set out a "pathway" to achieving that goal in a few months' time." (BBC News)

Any increase in taxes will of course be Labour's fault. And 2.5 won't do the business.

[gbnz]

Too little too late?
"The UK and EU countries must spend more on defence, .

Why after a 25 year gap, have we suddenly got huge numbers of fighter jets in the skies ? Was commonplace throughout the 80's, fighter jets a few hundred feet overhead, the "boom" as they passed. But they'd literally disappeared, from the early 90's, onwards

So why on the short 28 mile spin, have I now got fighter jets passing over the moor, dropping below me ? Haven't seen such since the start of the 90's. Had five on the last short 25 mile spin. Couple of Euro fighters dropped below. me, a few doing aerobatics, higher up.

Ultra short, 10 mile run today. 3 - 4 military jets, probably @ a couple of thousand feet.

[tim-b]

Any increase in taxes will of course be Labour's fault. And 2.5 won't do the business.

The UK has been at 2.33% since 2023, which was part of the Conservative pathway to hit 2.5%. I don't remember any major tax moans about defence spending at the GE, largely because Labour committed to it as well. Rach has fully costed everything, hasn't she?

23 Nato countries were now spending at least 2% of their GDP on defence

9 still aren't