Trump

[cycle tramp]

Well it is the morning after the day before and I am still feeling stunned by the speech by Vance. What a nasty piece of work he is! And listening to his tirade, I could feel the trans-Atlantic alliance being torn.

But the rhetoric from the Trump admin is so similar to that of Farage in the 2016 referendum one would struggle to get a fag paper between them.
Farage has been a supporter of Trump appeared regularly at Trump rallies.
And yet in 2016 you voted for Farage and his disaster Brexit.

At this point it's worth pointing out the only brexit vote was at which point we would run into serious trouble..
We could leave the EU and be in a severe amount of trouble soon afterwards or we could stay with the EU and become a part of the United States of Europe, and face a large amount of trouble then....
I voted for the latter, in a vague hope we might have been able to some how change the way the EU were heading..
..of course had the EU been cleverer and worked out we were actually a smaller island with a strong historic past, they could have taken the argument away from the 'Leave party' by letting us govern ourselves and set our own immigration levels..
..but they didn't...
..and more worrying, after we voted to live, many of the euro ratios failed to recognise that this vote may have been a reason to rethink where the EU was heading...

Britain has long had a history of saying 'stuff you, we'll do it our own way' and in doing so we've brought the world, Oasis, Madonna, the Beatles, The Internet, the telephone, pneumatic tyres, Middle Eart, Harry Potter, James Bond, the SAS, Beatrix Potter, William Morris, the Harrier Jump Jet, Charles Dickens, the Mini, the Vincent Black Shadow...
..we'll survive in the same way we ways have, luck, innovation, effort, an acknowledgement of risk and sheer bloodied mindedness..

[roubaixtuesday]

Britain has long had a history of saying 'stuff you, we'll do it our own way' and in doing so we've brought the world, Oasis, Madonna, the Beatles, The Internet, the telephone, pneumatic tyres, Middle Eart, Harry Potter, James Bond, the SAS, Beatrix Potter, William Morris, the Harrier Jump Jet, Charles Dickens, the Mini, the Vincent Black Shadow...
..we'll survive in the same way we ways have, luck, innovation, effort, an acknowledgement of risk and sheer bloodied mindedness..

A very good description of British Exceptionalism.

Unfortunately, it's entirely ficticious and believing it is exactly what has dragged us down as a nation.

It's not unique; the US national story of conquering the West has landed them with just a many problems.

[PDQ Mobile]

The EU is a group of autonomous democratic nations that also have a common Parliament where things get voted upon.
Some of those nations share a currency (which helps stop banks raking off money on trade and currency exchange).
Goods move pretty freely around.
It is in many way an astonishing success, born out of endless conflict.
Something hopeful, yet obviously not easy.
Compromise is the key.


The UK was never part of the full free movement Schengen area (we opted out) and we held the ability to control migration from the EU in our own hands.
But we never implemented it because it was "good" for our economy.

Immigration from further afield (now 600000 odd) was always our own autonomous visa based system.
These numbers are now since Brexit vastly increased, for obvious reasons, but it's more of a one way system from further flung places.

Refugees and asylum seekers came then as now, but various crises and wars (some of which we took part in) really increased the flow.
We lost by leaving the EU any equal membership leverage on the French who had, to some extent, been holding our border.

Putin deliberately pushed those refugees onward into the EU, sometimes forcibly- he knew what it would cause. And he caused some of it at the source, Syria amongst others.
It is those high refugee numbers that are causing the rise of the extreme Right in the EU; NOT the free movement within it.
.......
As an aside if my pretty decent memory serves me well, "pwa" stated many times on here that LEGAL immigration though freedom of movement was his biggest concern.
If you vote for a cause then you vote for its figurehead too. IMV.

And the rhetoric from Trump et al is so similar to that of Farage- it's undeniable.

But I do often agree with "pwa" on many issues.

[cycle tramp]

The EU is a group of autonomous democratic nations that also have a common Parliament where things get voted upon.
Some of those nations share a currency (which helps stop banks raking off money on trade and currency exchange).
Goods move pretty freely around.
It is in many way an astonishing success, born out of endless conflict.
Something hopeful, yet obviously not easy.
Compromise is the key.


The UK was never part of the full free movement Schengen area (we opted out) and we held the ability to control migration from the EU in our own hands.
But we never implemented it because it was "good" for our economy.

Immigration from further afield (now 600000 odd) was always our own autonomous visa based system.
These numbers are now since Brexit vastly increased, for obvious reasons, but it's more of a one way system from further flung places.

Refugees and asylum seekers came then as now, but various crises and wars (some of which we took part in) really increased the flow.
We lost by leaving the EU any equal membership leverage on the French who had, to some extent, been holding our border.

Putin deliberately pushed those refugees onward into the EU, sometimes forcibly- he knew what it would cause. And he caused some of it at the source, Syria amongst others.
It is those high refugee numbers that are causing the rise of the extreme Right in the EU; NOT the free movement within it.
.......
As an aside if my pretty decent memory serves me well, "pwa" stated many times on here that LEGAL immigration though freedom of movement was his biggest concern.
If you vote for a cause then you vote for its figurehead too. IMV.

I'm guessing tge IMV stands for 'in my view'.. in which case the idea that by voting for a cause you somehow 'appreciate ' or 'like' the figurehead is incredibly infantile.
As an anarchist I appreciate that it's possible that all parties can have good ideas and all parties can have bad ideas, in the same way that every religion will express both an aspect of universal truths and so of it will express some really disturbing passages about what may happen if you don't actually support that religion...
Personally, I don't like Trump, however I recognise the frustrations that the American people feel, if they are paying more towards nato than other states.
I don't like Musk either, however that's doesn't detract from the fact that i recognise his technical and design abilities are amazing..
I still don't like Margerat Thatcher, but I do recognise that the small business payments her party made did help encourage people to start their own business...
And it works the other way too... generally I like the stuff writed by Alan Moore, however, there were elements in his batman story.. Killing Joke..which were beneath him.
And so on...
The whole 'whose gang are you in?' belongs in the playground and rightly should be left there. Everything is far more complicated...

...and by appreciating the complexity we are in a better position to make choices...

[cycle tramp]

Britain has long had a history of saying 'stuff you, we'll do it our own way' and in doing so we've brought the world, Oasis, Madonna, the Beatles, The Internet, the telephone, pneumatic tyres, Middle Eart, Harry Potter, James Bond, the SAS, Beatrix Potter, William Morris, the Harrier Jump Jet, Charles Dickens, the Mini, the Vincent Black Shadow...
..we'll survive in the same way we ways have, luck, innovation, effort, an acknowledgement of risk and sheer bloodied mindedness..

A very good description of British Exceptionalism.

Unfortunately, it's entirely ficticious and believing it is exactly what has dragged us down as a nation.

Well... its not fictitious in the fact that the above originated in Britain, and generated income... nationally, its to our credit that we generated some income, not from the sale of oil or power, or food or goods, but through talent... writing, singing, art..

Incidently I forgot to mention 'land rover' a vehicle which has been sold all over the world, 70% of all vehicles sold are still working...

And I forgot to mention we actually invited lego (sadly it was sold pretty early on)..

Britain is full of talent, it will always be full of talent. We need to appreciate and invest in it.

[pwa]

Britain has long had a history of saying 'stuff you, we'll do it our own way' and in doing so we've brought the world, Oasis, Madonna, the Beatles, The Internet, the telephone, pneumatic tyres, Middle Eart, Harry Potter, James Bond, the SAS, Beatrix Potter, William Morris, the Harrier Jump Jet, Charles Dickens, the Mini, the Vincent Black Shadow...
..we'll survive in the same way we ways have, luck, innovation, effort, an acknowledgement of risk and sheer bloodied mindedness..

A very good description of British Exceptionalism.

Unfortunately, it's entirely ficticious and believing it is exactly what has dragged us down as a nation.

It's not unique; the US national story of conquering the West has landed them with just a many problems.

I would go further and say that no nation is without problems right now. USA (all too obviously), France, Germany and other EU states, Russia and perhaps even China, all facing serious problems. The only way to deal with today's issues is to move forward. We need partners, and we need them to share our values, so the USA is out. At one time that would have left states in the EU, but they are facing crises of identity too. Even the rock of Germany is looking a bit fragile. Upcoming elections may provide some clarity on what we are dealing with there. Uncertain times, but I very much doubt that us having remained in the EU would have affected most of this. And to be frank, if I thought us re-joining would put the EU states back on a moderate and stable course, I would probably support that right now, but I don't. I wish I could say otherwise.

[Nearholmer]

Looked at from a distance, I honestly think that the alternatives in front of the countries of Western Europe (tgat includes us) are quite stark:

- get swallowed-up into a new order that involves the vast bulk of the power, and therefore the way things operate, being concentrated in the hands of a small coterie of unfeasibly wealthy people and their political front men, with national-populism being used to make people feel good about being bled white; or,

- a really determined move, more determined that in recent years, to create quite egalitarian societies that genuinely serve the interests of pretty much everyone, and regulate the “big boys” sufficiently to prevent them fouling things up for everyone else. Which might imply a less materially prosperous, but much more socially prosperous society.

Clearly the first of those is in the ascendant, and the case for the second hasn’t really even been made …. It’s certainly not what we’ve had in the recent past.

If the second did ascend, we’d very much need to cooperate pan-Europe, but the exact form of cooperation needn’t be the EU exactly as it’s been, which might play to French and German models of how things should be organised, but is too bureau-centric for many. We need that collaboration for defence not only against Russia, but against corporations and wealth-interests that are bigger, wield more money and hence power, than individual states.

The UK is too small to safely go it alone - we are being eaten for breakfast by corporations and wealth-interests.

[[XAP]Bob]

Incidently I forgot to mention 'land rover' a vehicle which has been sold all over the world, 70% of all vehicles sold are still working...

For at least one day a week, before they head back to the garage.

[Paulatic]

..

Incidently I forgot to mention 'land rover' a vehicle which has been sold all over the world, 70% of all vehicles sold are still working...

Looks like you’ve never owned one are a very lucky person.
The rotting outriggers, the drip on the knee, ……Once a Toyota Hi Lux came into my life there was no going back.

[reohn2]

..we'll survive in the same way we ways have, luck, innovation, effort, an acknowledgement of risk and sheer bloodied mindedness..

The point about Brexit is,would we as a country have been better off in the EU(for all it's problems) or out,I believed then that we would be better off in the EU and juusssttt less than half of those who voted thought the same.
the people who voted in have since been found to be right in our thinking,and now as a result of Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine further ambitions even more so.
On thing's for sure,Europe needs,however much it doesn't want to,ready itself for war with Russia,Putin's regime needs to be destroyed for the rest of Europe to feel safe.

As for Trump,he'll more than likely withdraw support for Ukraine,because he's in essence another Putin and as Robert de Nero says of Trump he's a creep,punk,a dog,without scruples,he's like his handler Musk,cares for nothing other than how much money they can make out of the four years they have in power and they'll destroy the US for the ordinary wo/man into the bargain

[PDQ Mobile]

I'm guessing tge IMV stands for 'in my view'.. in which case the idea that by voting for a cause you somehow 'appreciate ' or 'like' the figurehead is incredibly infantile.
As an anarchist I appreciate that it's possible that all parties can have good ideas and all parties can have bad ideas, in the same way that every religion will express both an aspect of universal truths and so of it will express some really disturbing passages about what may happen if you don't actually support that religion...
Personally, I don't like Trump, however I recognise the frustrations that the American people feel, if they are paying more towards nato than other states.
I don't like Musk either, however that's doesn't detract from the fact that i recognise his technical and design abilities are amazing..
I still don't like Margerat Thatcher, but I do recognise that the small business payments her party made did help encourage people to start their own business...
And it works the other way too... generally I like the stuff writed by Alan Moore, however, there were elements in his batman story.. Killing Joke..which were beneath him.
And so on...
The whole 'whose gang are you in?' belongs in the playground and rightly should be left there. Everything is far more complicated...

...and by appreciating the complexity we are in a better position to make choices...

"IMV" says that's what I (capital) think.
It is a marker of a personal opinion, and also a recognition that others will hold a different view.
( in your view I have been, King Canute, a birdbrain, and "infantile" in the last month, I try to refrain from such and just present my arguments)

It is undeniable that without Farage the Leave campaign would have lost.
And much of what he said / promised is now shown to be erroneous or rather a pack of lies.
So I do not think my earlier assertion that a vote for Leave was a vote for Farage to be wrong.

If you think I am wrong about the main reasons for the rise of the far right in mainland EU, please say why.
It is an essential point that no-one here has yet addressed.
..........
The UK is a great place on many levels.
But it is not the only one on earth.
Many innovative and good things stem from elsewhere.
The swan-neck handled shovel for example!!

Madonna??







[PDQ Mobile]

Looked at from a distance, I honestly think that the alternatives in front of the countries of Western Europe (tgat includes us) are quite stark:

- get swallowed-up into a new order that involves the vast bulk of the power, and therefore the way things operate, being concentrated in the hands of a small coterie of unfeasibly wealthy people and their political front men, with national-populism being used to make people feel good about being bled white; or,

- a really determined move, more determined that in recent years, to create quite egalitarian societies that genuinely serve the interests of pretty much everyone, and regulate the “big boys” sufficiently to prevent them fouling things up for everyone else. Which might imply a less materially prosperous, but much more socially prosperous society.

Clearly the first of those is in the ascendant, and the case for the second hasn’t really even been made …. It’s certainly not what we’ve had in the recent past.

If the second did ascend, we’d very much need to cooperate pan-Europe, but the exact form of cooperation needn’t be the EU exactly as it’s been, which might play to French and German models of how things should be organised, but is too bureau-centric for many. We need that collaboration for defence not only against Russia, but against corporations and wealth-interests that are bigger, wield more money and hence power, than individual states.

The UK is too small to safely go it alone - we are being eaten for breakfast by corporations and wealth-interests.

I think you are right.
(I wish I could be as concise, passion seems to get in the way!)

However let us not forget though that through attempting (partially successful) to regulate Murdoch's empire in the EU that self same organisation drew his anger.
Murdoch's conversation with Farage ("is it poossible?") and subsequent support of Brexit is documented.
And News Corp is a very big influencer.

[reohn2]

Incidently I forgot to mention 'land rover' a vehicle which has been sold all over the world, 70% of all vehicles sold are still working...

For at least one day a week, before they head back to the garage.

LandRover/Jaguar are consistently are high in the top ten worst cars in Europe!

[reohn2]

Looked at from a distance, I honestly think that the alternatives in front of the countries of Western Europe (tgat includes us) are quite stark:

- get swallowed-up into a new order that involves the vast bulk of the power, and therefore the way things operate, being concentrated in the hands of a small coterie of unfeasibly wealthy people and their political front men, with national-populism being used to make people feel good about being bled white; or,

- a really determined move, more determined that in recent years, to create quite egalitarian societies that genuinely serve the interests of pretty much everyone, and regulate the “big boys” sufficiently to prevent them fouling things up for everyone else. Which might imply a less materially prosperous, but much more socially prosperous society.

Clearly the first of those is in the ascendant, and the case for the second hasn’t really even been made …. It’s certainly not what we’ve had in the recent past.

If the second did ascend, we’d very much need to cooperate pan-Europe, but the exact form of cooperation needn’t be the EU exactly as it’s been, which might play to French and German models of how things should be organised, but is too bureau-centric for many. We need that collaboration for defence not only against Russia, but against corporations and wealth-interests that are bigger, wield more money and hence power, than individual states.

The UK is too small to safely go it alone - we are being eaten for breakfast by corporations and wealth-interests.

Spot on!

[cycle tramp]

I'm guessing tge IMV stands for 'in my view'.. in which case the idea that by voting for a cause you somehow 'appreciate ' or 'like' the figurehead is incredibly infantile.
As an anarchist I appreciate that it's possible that all parties can have good ideas and all parties can have bad ideas..

...and by appreciating the complexity we are in a better position to make choices...

"IMV" says that's what I (capital) think.
It is a marker of a personal opinion, and also a recognition that others will hold a different view.
( in your view I have been, King Canute, a birdbrain, and "infantile" in the last month, I try to refrain from such and just present my arguments)

..more accurately I called the idea of voting for a policy is like voting for the person suggesting it,, incredibly infantile and gave my reasons for such a statement... previously I have drawn parallels in discussing previous topics with you akin to arguing with king Canute, which is why I try not to... I'm guessing the bird bird was a reference to the fact that in the same reason I don't play chess with my chickens, I try not to respond to your posts..... there is simply no reward for doing so.