War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

[pete75]

Maybe remember that Russia expected to be in Kyiv in three days. And still isn't. Our limited help didn't start arriving until after Ukrainians had pushed Russia back.

The USSR may have gone, but please ask yourself if it would be reasonable for the surviving residents of Bucha to be frightened for themselves and their kids if Russian troops were to return there. Then perhaps consider how many Ukrainian refugees will move west rather than remain under Russian occupation.

They'll only move west if they're allowed to, and they ain't well liked in Poland. The Volhynia genocide is still well remembered there.

Zelensky and Tusk met just last month to kiss and make up over that series of massacres. Perhaps because they both realise they have a more significant common threat?

Poland has admitted a lot of Ukrainian refugees already, and been the transit route to countries further west including the UK. There were quite a few catching the bus at the border crossing to head west when I was there a few weeks ago. My point is that if Ukrainians don't feel safe under Russian occupation many many more will do the same.

The UK likes to remember how generous it was taking Jewish kids from the Kinder transports in 1938-9. We are less keen to.tecall that the kids travelled alone because we refused to admit their parents. And we know what happened to most of them.

So is the UK now willing to do much more, along with other European countries, the US having washed it's hands of the war to.focus on getting cheap rare earths, to keep Ukraine safe for Ukrainians? Or would we prefer to take our share of the subsequent refugees if we don't? Or will we do the same as in 1939 and leave them to the tender care of the Russians?

Yes, leave them to the Russians.

[reohn2]

The point is, it's possible to export electricity as shown by FRance and Denmark.

My point is that we can't because we need all we produce,that's why we import it.

[reohn2]

Yes, leave them to the Russians.

You're all heart Pete

[Stevek76]

There are multiple HVDC interconnects between the UK and other parts of the european grid, however their capacity is limited and rather more so than the capacity to transport oil and gas around, particularly the former which is typically shipped about in the crude state then refined more locally.

The impact of this is quite apparent when comparing electricity prices across Europe which differ despite the interconnects.

more so in the case of France

A country that sensibly refreshed its fleet of nuclear power stations when the UK didn't as doing so was too socialist for the right and too 'danegerous' etc for the anti-science hippies plauging the left. Net result, creaking electricity system and vastly more actual harm done (CO2, local pollutants - including ironically, vastly more radioactive stuff spewed into the atmosphere from burning coal)

[djnotts]

The Trump approach to ending the war on Ukraine is the equivalent to having had only the USA and Germany negotiating the 1945 "settlement". Excluding the invaded country is unacceptable, excluding Europe is bizarre.

Russia was the aggressor, now it is being rewarded by the backer of the victim for stopping its aggression. In the real world Russia is being handed victory.

This seems to sum it up.

"The sight of senior Russian and American officials back around a giant wooden table is extraordinary in the current context and will be very hard for many, most of all Ukrainians, to digest.

But it’s exactly the image Moscow wants: Russia at the "top table" of global diplomacy, looking like it’s equal to the US and even able to call the shots.

Because this is not a defeated Russia, forced to the negotiating table: it’s more like the United States inviting the aggressor to set out its terms.

One of those Russian officials, long-serving foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, is even under US sanctions for his part in a "brutal war of choice", which he fully supports.

The US says this is about feeling Moscow out – seeing whether it’s even serious about ending its invasion.

But Russia will project this moment - that image around the shiny Saudi table – as proof that the war on Ukraine, and Russia’s subsequent isolation, were just a blip and it will soon be back to business as before." (BBC News)

Shameful. But Trump's America doesn't do shame.

[853]

The Trump approach to ending the war on Ukraine is the equivalent to having had only the USA and Germany negotiating the 1945 "settlement". Excluding the invaded country is unacceptable, excluding Europe is bizarre.

The war has been going on for 3 years and Europe has done nothing substantial to stop it

Trump has been in power 1 month and Russia are at the negotiating table.

That's why Europe has been excluded.

[roubaixtuesday]

The Trump approach to ending the war on Ukraine is the equivalent to having had only the USA and Germany negotiating the 1945 "settlement". Excluding the invaded country is unacceptable, excluding Europe is bizarre.

The war has been going on for 3 years and Europe has done nothing substantial to stop it

Trump has been in power 1 month and Russia are at the negotiating table.

That's why Europe has been excluded.

Trump is offering Russia, a fascist authoritarian state guilty of significant war crimes, exactly what it wants.

Europe wouldn't put up with that.

That's why Russia is at the "negotiating" table.

[853]

The Trump approach to ending the war on Ukraine is the equivalent to having had only the USA and Germany negotiating the 1945 "settlement". Excluding the invaded country is unacceptable, excluding Europe is bizarre.

The war has been going on for 3 years and Europe has done nothing substantial to stop it

Trump has been in power 1 month and Russia are at the negotiating table.

That's why Europe has been excluded.

Trump is offering Russia, a fascist authoritarian state guilty of significant war crimes, exactly what it wants.

Europe wouldn't put up with that.

That's why Russia is at the "negotiating" table.

You don't know that, you've got no facts. You're just speculating

[DaveReading]

The Trump approach to ending the war on Ukraine is the equivalent to having had only the USA and Germany negotiating the 1945 "settlement". Excluding the invaded country is unacceptable, excluding Europe is bizarre.

The war has been going on for 3 years and Europe has done nothing substantial to stop it

Trump has been in power 1 month and Russia are at the negotiating table.

That's why Europe has been excluded.

Trump is offering Russia, a fascist authoritarian state guilty of significant war crimes, exactly what it wants.

Europe wouldn't put up with that.

That's why Russia is at the "negotiating" table.

And, it would seem, Lavrov is walking all over Rubio.

[djnotts]

^853: "The war has been going on for 3 betrayed Europe has done nothing substantial to stop it

Trump has been in power 1 month and Russia are at the negotiating table.

That's why Europe has been excluded."

It's not a "negotiating table", simply capitulation (on another state's behalf!). Europe could have surrendered on Ukraine's behalf, but has some honour, some regard for the independence of another European country.

Trump perfectly happy to reward a war criminal. Sets a good precedent for the Gaza betrayal/seizure.

[roubaixtuesday]

The war has been going on for 3 years and Europe has done nothing substantial to stop it

Trump has been in power 1 month and Russia are at the negotiating table.

That's why Europe has been excluded.

Trump is offering Russia, a fascist authoritarian state guilty of significant war crimes, exactly what it wants.

Europe wouldn't put up with that.

That's why Russia is at the "negotiating" table.

You don't know that, you've got no facts. You're just speculating

Not at all. The US has publicly stated that key Russian demands are now US demands too: Ukraine borders, Nato membership, US peacekeepers.

The US is now a Russian ally.

If Ukraine were it's ally, it would agree a position with Ukraine, then present it to Russia. The opposite is happening.

[reohn2]

.........The US is now a Russian ally.

If Ukraine were it's ally, it would agree a position with Ukraine, then present it to Russia. The opposite is happening.

Exactly!
And Trump hates a united Europe as much as Putin does.

[Nearholmer]

How long have I been saying that for??

[djnotts]

This is taking on shades of Alice in Wonderland.

"As part of their provisional agreement, the US and Russia agreed that Ukraine must hold elections before any peace deal was reached, reports the Daily Telegraph. The paper says it raises concerns that Russia could use the ballot to oust Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and "install a pro-Putin candidate who would agree to peace terms favourable to Moscow"." (BBC News.)

How about same condition for Russia? Nope, didn't think so.

Seems Trump has also said Ukraine shouldn't have started this!

I can't recall any such total distortion of "facts" in an international setting (although the US in SE Asia in '60s comes close!).

Trump's tactics conceding all the aggressor nation wanted hardly warrants the term "negotiations".

[wheelyhappy99]

They'll only move west if they're allowed to, and they ain't well liked in Poland. The Volhynia genocide is still well remembered there.

Zelensky and Tusk met just last month to kiss and make up over that series of massacres. Perhaps because they both realise they have a more significant common threat?

Poland has admitted a lot of Ukrainian refugees already, and been the transit route to countries further west including the UK. There were quite a few catching the bus at the border crossing to head west when I was there a few weeks ago. My point is that if Ukrainians don't feel safe under Russian occupation many many more will do the same.

The UK likes to remember how generous it was taking Jewish kids from the Kinder transports in 1938-9. We are less keen to.tecall that the kids travelled alone because we refused to admit their parents. And we know what happened to most of them.

So is the UK now willing to do much more, along with other European countries, the US having washed it's hands of the war to.focus on getting cheap rare earths, to keep Ukraine safe for Ukrainians? Or would we prefer to take our share of the subsequent refugees if we don't? Or will we do the same as in 1939 and leave them to the tender care of the Russians?

Yes, leave them to the Russians.

Clear enough Pete.

To avoid speculation about your view will you specify which of the following European populations should also be 'left to the Russians' should they be invaded by Russian, and perhaps North Korean, troops?
Finns, Estonians, Moldovans, Polish, German, French, British.