War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

[UpWrong]

It looks like Trump is selling out on Ukraine, and setting Zelensky up as the fall guy. Don't forget it was Trump who sold out on the Afghan govt, handing the country back to the Taliban with the result that all women in the country are discriminated against.

Time for the Polish to get nuclear weapons?

[Carlton green]

Time for the Polish to get nuclear weapons?

Them and the Germans too. They also need a better security service that simply ‘removes’ the Russian ‘agents’ that have weakened other countries ahead of Russia pushing to bring them back under their control. We in the West are too soft for our own good.

Trump in the Whitehouse was one hell of a victory for Putin, there must have been great rejoicing in Moscow.

[Nearholmer]

I’m not convinced that all this talk of nuclear weapons is anything like the whole story.

The way to get regime change, to one favourable to your particular interests, in this case plutocracy/oligocracy fronted by national-populism, is to sap your opponent by from inside.

The UK, France, Germany etc are far more likely to crumble due to corrosion, than a frontal assault, and we have long been subject to acids of all kinds being dribbled onto us. Social media are really, really serious pipes for the acid, financial influence through investors and property purchase is another, suborning populist politicians and using them as tools is another, winding-up farmers to fever pitch is a good technique, buying-up and using traditional media like TV and newspapers is a good route, and so it goes on.

Already c20% of the population has been sufficiently softened-up, and as we’ve seen with the USA things can tilt decisively in favour of the anti-democracy forces quite rapidly.

What the answer to that is, I’m less sure, but one thing to consider is that militarising our economies actually aids the anti-democrats, by syphoning money away from public services, allowing the roads to get more potholes, the NHS longer waiting lists, schools fewer funds etc, thereby increasing discontent and depression, and increasing the number of people who blame it all on immigrants, so vote the national-populists in.

As well as getting better armed, maybe Western Europe also needs to get a lot “ballsier” (apologies) about the values it is trying to defend, and start living them a bit more by getting more egalitarian.

[853]

It looks like Trump is selling out on Ukraine, and setting Zelensky up as the fall guy. Don't forget it was Trump who sold out on the Afghan govt, handing the country back to the Taliban with the result that all women in the country are discriminated against.

Wrong.

The U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan was in 2021, when Biden was in power

[UpWrong]

It looks like Trump is selling out on Ukraine, and setting Zelensky up as the fall guy. Don't forget it was Trump who sold out on the Afghan govt, handing the country back to the Taliban with the result that all women in the country are discriminated against.

Wrong.

The U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan was in 2021, when Biden was in power

Wrong. It was Trump who made the deal (without the agreement of the Afghan govt).

[853]

It looks like Trump is selling out on Ukraine, and setting Zelensky up as the fall guy. Don't forget it was Trump who sold out on the Afghan govt, handing the country back to the Taliban with the result that all women in the country are discriminated against.

Wrong.

The U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan was in 2021, when Biden was in power

Wrong. It was Trump who made the deal (without the agreement of the Afghan govt).

Biden didn't stick to the deal

[Stevek76]

Already c20% of the population has been sufficiently softened-up, and as we’ve seen with the USA things can tilt decisively in favour of the anti-democracy forces quite rapidly.

What the answer to that is, I’m less sure, but one thing to consider is that militarising our economies actually aids the anti-democrats, by syphoning money away from public services, allowing the roads to get more potholes, the NHS longer waiting lists, schools fewer funds etc, thereby increasing discontent and depression, and increasing the number of people who blame it all on immigrants, so vote the national-populists in.

As well as getting better armed, maybe Western Europe also needs to get a lot “ballsier” (apologies) about the values it is trying to defend, and start living them a bit more by getting more egalitarian.

Well there's a few hundred bn $s of frozen russian assets that could help fund ukraine's defence. Being more egalitarian is certainly needed regardless though, unfortunately the western political cycle trope involving uninspiring centrists trope seems to remain true at this point with Starmer's labour happy to trash what few more egalitarian manifesto commitments they still had in it in an effort to tack further 'right', oblivious to the fact that they're just making the same mistakes the tories made and playing straight into reform's hands.

[Carlton green]

The way to get regime change, to one favourable to your particular interests, in this case plutocracy/oligocracy fronted by national-populism, is to sap your opponent by from inside.

The UK, France, Germany etc are far more likely to crumble due to corrosion, than a frontal assault, and we have long been subject to acids of all kinds being dribbled onto us. Social media are really, really serious pipes for the acid, financial influence through investors and property purchase is another, suborning populist politicians and using them as tools is another, winding-up farmers to fever pitch is a good technique, buying-up and using traditional media like TV and newspapers is a good route, and so it goes on.

Already c20% of the population has been sufficiently softened-up, and as we’ve seen with the USA things can tilt decisively in favour of the anti-democracy forces quite rapidly.

That has been one of the many levers that Putin has been pulling, we’re just too stupid to realise it. Where he has military superiority he will also lever with that too.

[pete75]

Zelensky and Tusk met just last month to kiss and make up over that series of massacres. Perhaps because they both realise they have a more significant common threat?

Poland has admitted a lot of Ukrainian refugees already, and been the transit route to countries further west including the UK. There were quite a few catching the bus at the border crossing to head west when I was there a few weeks ago. My point is that if Ukrainians don't feel safe under Russian occupation many many more will do the same.

The UK likes to remember how generous it was taking Jewish kids from the Kinder transports in 1938-9. We are less keen to.tecall that the kids travelled alone because we refused to admit their parents. And we know what happened to most of them.

So is the UK now willing to do much more, along with other European countries, the US having washed it's hands of the war to.focus on getting cheap rare earths, to keep Ukraine safe for Ukrainians? Or would we prefer to take our share of the subsequent refugees if we don't? Or will we do the same as in 1939 and leave them to the tender care of the Russians?

Yes, leave them to the Russians.

Clear enough Pete.

To avoid speculation about your view will you specify which of the following European populations should also be 'left to the Russians' should they be invaded by Russian, and perhaps North Korean, troops?
Finns, Estonians, Moldovans, Polish, German, French, British.

Be my guest - speculate as much as you like about my views.

[reohn2]

It's time for Europe to step up, for sure.

Spot on!
Now it's a question will we stop the march of tyrants or a case of as Pete75 wants to just let the Russians have us as well as them.
These are dark times for Europe unless it can get itself truly united,and I count the UK as part of that unification,it's time for real leadership.

[pete75]

It's time for Europe to step up, for sure.

Spot on!
Now it's a question will we stop the march of tyrants or a case of as Pete75 wants to just let the Russians have us as well as them.
These are dark times for Europe unless it can get itself truly united,and I count the UK as part of that unification,it's time for real leadership.

I never said that, and your view that Russia will invade NATO members in Europe is pure fantasy. Still some people need a bogeyman to frighten the children.

[cycle tramp]

...although less of a fantasy.. if Trump decides not to be involved as there are 'miles and miles of peacedul ocean' between America and Russia' Perhaps the only childish belief is that America will come to our aid, should Russia invade a nato country...

[Carlton green]

...although less of a fantasy.. if Trump decides not to be involved as there are 'miles and miles of peacedul ocean' between America and Russia' Perhaps the only childish belief is that America will come to our aid, should Russia invade a nato country...

^^ This. Those that think the unthinkable can not happen are in for a shock. The shock might take time to arrive but a patient adversary will just keep patiently chipping away at things and take their opportunities to advance.

[reohn2]

...although less of a fantasy.. if Trump decides not to be involved as there are 'miles and miles of peacedul ocean' between America and Russia' Perhaps the only childish belief is that America will come to our aid, should Russia invade a nato country...

^^ This. Those that think the unthinkable can not happen are in for a shock. The shock might take time to arrive but a patient adversary will just keep patiently chipping away at things and take their opportunities to advance.

Correct,I wouldn't put nothing past Putin or Trump,both are despotic dictators high on the drug of power the most destructive of all drugs.
It seems in the past 80 years we've learned nothing as history begins to repeat itself.

[cycle tramp]

...itself worth remembering that both China and North Korea are also watching Trump - if Trump doesn't intervene, then that another green light for China and North Korea to act...

It's very possible that if Russia makes a move towards any other European country, Trump will use the opportunity to seize Canada and Greenland....