Strength but lack of power

[Cugel]

The bike is irrelevant because the topic was opened to explore why my physique doesn't translate to power on the pedals, not how to survive on my bike. And it was triggered when I did an FTP test and other tests on spinner and static machines where neither my bike nor my weight play a role

The bike is very relevant as you're asking why you can't ride it up hills as you'd like to. The general answer in many posts provides a fundamental part of the answer - you need lower gears, both to get up the hills comfortably and to be able to "train" yourself so as to improve your aerobic fitness.

You don't mention your bodyweight or the percentage of bodyfat you have. Those factors are also highly relevant to performance when riding a bike up hills. The power-to-weight ratio makes a difference.

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It's probable that you could train yourself via cycling to increase your FTP from your current 130 to around 200. 200 watts is the sort of sustainable-for-an-hour power output that many club cyclists can do, even those not racing. (Racing fellows would usually need an FTP of 240 - 300 or more).

Such training can be done via a programme with data and, if you wanted, on a static bike. All that would cost money and is very boring kind of cycling. If the data doesn't match what you want or expect, it can also sap your morale, so .....

I suggest you get a cassette (and, if necessary another rear mech and chain to match) that gives you several lower gears for the hills than you have now. A cassette with the largest sprocket of 34 would give you significantly lower gears with your 30 tooth chainring. Go out cycling, including the hills, and aim to spin the cranks rather than mash them at a slow rev-rate, getting up to the top without blowing up your legs or lungs. Enjoy the ride rather than trying to push to your limits all the time. (Just push to those limits briefly until you can do it several times-per-ride).

If you do this regularly for several rides (say 25) you'll likely see a big improvement in your FTP. If you're a bit overweight and lose some, you'll see an even greater improvement in terms of shorter times, without getting knackered, in going up hills.

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Muscular size and strength for road cycling optimally is nothing like the size and strength needed for power lifting weights. If you do diet and exercise to lose weight, you'll likely lose some muscle mass as well as bodyfat. That won't harm your cycling as long as you don't pursue weight loss in an obsessive way.

[spyvas]

agreed... this is not a technical topic.. but a fitness topic.
I could put a 30-12 cassete at the back (that is the only that fits the sora derailer and I tried) but this would change the ratio from 1.2 to 1 which is important.. but not so (I still end up grinding uphill)

in analogy I am not asking how to make my gear train of a passenger car to perform like the low gearbox of a truck... but how to make my "diesel" engine of my thighs perform as a passenger car engine

[Cugel]

PS - here are some of my stats concerning riding a bike, including the many Welsh hills of every ride:

Current bodyweight: 75 kilos (recently reduced from about 82 kilos) and 178cm height.
FTP (a guess, I last measured it at 210 watts 6 years ago at age 70) : 170 watts.
Endurance bike: with gearing 52-39-30 chainset and 14 - 34 cassette.
My body type: mesomorph (thick bones and large muscle size even when not going to the gym).

Most rides around 40 to 60 kilometres with 800 - 1200 metres of climbing (measured in OS Maps on the PC).
I don't measure my speeds or times but a rough guess would be 20 - 25 kph average for a ride.
Many of the hills I go up are long (e.g. 300 metre ascent over 7.5 km) but there are numerous 20% shorter ascents.

I spend significant time in 30 X 30 or 30 X34, spinning up the steeper hill sections. I tend to freewheel down them when the speed gets above around probably 50 kph (my guess at the time, I have no bike computer) in an aero tuck rather than wasting energy and destroying my aero profile by pedalling.

The OP could likely exceed this level of performance with three or four months of regular riding with plenty of spinning up hills and doing ride-enjoyment rather than constant "suffering".

[Cugel]

agreed... this is not a technical topic.. but a fitness topic.
I could put a 30-12 cassete at the back (that is the only that fits the sora derailer and I tried) but this would change the ratio from 1.2 to 1 which is important.. but not so (I still end up grinding uphill)

in analogy I am not asking how to make my gear train of a passenger car to perform like the low gearbox of a truck... but how to make my "diesel" engine of my thighs perform as a passenger car engine

Your thighs are not an engine. Your whole body and its numerous energy gathering, processing and outputting systems are the engine.

So, analogies of bicycle gearing to car and truck gearing are poor analogies - although there is one aspect that isn't: such engines have a rev rate at which they're most efficient; so does a human cyclist. If you go too far from that rev range, you'll either stall if too slow or lose power if too fast.

So, if you can't go up a hill without "grinding" you need to lower the gear or lose body weight or get fitter. Preferably all three. Two parts of getting fitter on a bike (there are other parts) are pedalling it at an efficient rate and losing the weight you have to propel up hills.

[pjclinch]

Bike relevance...

It may well be, of all my bikes the one that's hardest to get up a hill (and at least in my mind I'm pretty good at hills) is the Brompton, and precisely because its bottom gear is higher than the others. Because I can't change down any further I have to use a lower cadence than I like (I usually run at about 80 rpm) and that makes it a grind.
Where I can change down further on my other bikes to get to my favoured cadence it's no problem.

Before reengineering the bike perhaps borrow an MTB or hybrid with a lower granny and see how you do if you have gears low enough to maintain your usual on-the-flat cadence when climbing? An MTB will probably bottom out with not far off half the size of gear of your bike as it is.

Pete.

[rareposter]

agreed... this is not a technical topic.. but a fitness topic.
I could put a 30-12 cassete at the back (that is the only that fits the sora derailer and I tried) but this would change the ratio from 1.2 to 1 which is important.. but not so (I still end up grinding uphill)

They are sort of related - to go back to weightlifting, if you were looking to build muscle, using a 5kg dumbbell isn't really going to achieve a lot; likewise if you're a weedy little kid, you don't start out on the 100kg bench press. The correct equipment is as important there as it is in cycling.

If you want to ride up hills effectively, using your legs and lungs to maximum efficiency, the bike needs to be set up for that with regard to your build / physique / abilities. And if (for whatever reason), you don't have the ability to effectively use the bike in its current guise, you might want to consider changing the bike (or the components on it) to ensure the best match.

[ed.lazda]

When you describe going off as hard as you can up a hill and grinding to a halt in less than 5 minutes, this is exactly what you'd expect from any athlete, even those at the very top. The energy systems used in such an effort expire after a certain duration, roughly:

Zone 7 -- max. effort, "neuromuscular" power, duration less than 20 secs
Zone 6 -- anaerobic power, up to a few minutes
Zone 5 -- maximum aerobic power, less than 10 minutes.

I guess that as a weighlifter you need a very good zone 7 power and anything else is pretty much irrelevant. You're probably very good at short rises in rolling terrain. For a 20-minute climb, you'll need to be mostly in zone 4 (threshold power); anything more and you're likely to expire before you get to the top. Pacing the climb is essential.

[Tigerbiten]

agreed... this is not a technical topic.. but a fitness topic.
I could put a 30-12 cassete at the back (that is the only that fits the sora derailer and I tried) but this would change the ratio from 1.2 to 1 which is important.. but not so (I still end up grinding uphill)

Which is why I said go for a 12-36 cassette and new long cage derailleur.

in analogy I am not asking how to make my gear train of a passenger car to perform like the low gearbox of a truck... but how to make my "diesel" engine of my thighs perform as a passenger car engine

You rebuild the engine so it works "better" for what you want to do.

Going back to weight lifting. You're probably used to doing 5 sets of 5 reps with 100 kg on the bar. What would happen if you tried to do 5 sets of 50 reps with only 10 kg on the bar and for fun you're against the clock. You've lifted the same amount weight but multi light lifts will probably need a lot more stamina and not so much pure strength.

You need to do something similar on your bike. Try to get used to riding everywhere with a high cadence/light pedal pressure. Nothing silly but something you feel you could keep for an hour or two. If you get to hill, shift down to keep the same high cadence/light pedal pressure feel as opposed to just trying to power up it. It's not a quick fix as you retraining you body to spin along as opposed to grinding while working on your back ground stamina by trying to working longer in heart rate zone 2.

[Nearholmer]

This can all become over complicated, and frankly rather like unpaid work instead of unpaid pleasure.

Another way of looking at is to just go on a lot of bike rides, picking interesting destinations, with interesting, different, routes there and back. Start with places about an hour away. Just pedal along, and if you “blow up” on a hill, get off and push to the top. Once the places an hour away feel local, go to some places an hour and a half away, repeat, go to places a couple of hours away, etc.

Forget all the training tosh, forget about gear ratios, just enjoy yourself on the bike you have, and remember that pushing up hills isn’t a punishable offence, or a matter of shame. Just enjoy the scenery and the interesting places.

You will be surprised how not bothering about all the tech stuff, and just enjoying bike rides magically, and surprisingly quickly, improves your fitness to go on bike rides. And, if doesn’t? Well, you’ve seen a lot of places you never saw before. The world is full of interesting stuff, and is a lot more than a gym without a roof.

[Cugel]

Here are some articles about hill climbing, by a tourist fellah that's done a xillion miles with a lot of weight on his bike. And for those who like data, there's plenty of that too in illustrating his points about climbing hills on a bike.

https://www.cyclingabout.com/hills-are- ... -the-flat/

https://www.cyclingabout.com/pedalling- ... -up-hills/

https://www.cyclingabout.com/gradient-t ... pest-hill/

The first paragraphs:

"People tell me all the time about how much they struggle in the hills. And that makes sense, right? You have to move your heavy touring bike and all your gear up a steep road, requiring LOTS of hard pedal pushing along the way.

Actually, that’s simply not true. If you struggle in the hills, you’re doing it wrong.

Let me explain."

All this has been explained in the thread already, really.

[rareposter]

This can all become over complicated, and frankly rather like unpaid work instead of unpaid pleasure.

Another way of looking at is to just go on a lot of bike rides, picking interesting destinations, with interesting, different, routes there and back. Start with places about an hour away. Just pedal along, and if you “blow up” on a hill, get off and push to the top. Once the places an hour away feel local, go to some places an hour and a half away, repeat, go to places a couple of hours away, etc.

Forget all the training tosh, forget about gear ratios, just enjoy yourself on the bike you have, and remember that pushing up hills isn’t a punishable offence, or a matter of shame. Just enjoy the scenery and the interesting places.

You will be surprised how not bothering about all the tech stuff, and just enjoying bike rides magically, and surprisingly quickly, improves your fitness to go on bike rides. And, if doesn’t? Well, you’ve seen a lot of places you never saw before. The world is full of interesting stuff, and is a lot more than a gym without a roof.

To the OP - there is also a huge amount of sense in this post ^^

There is (as always) more than one way to go about this - the full on structured training plan with power meter and data at one end of the scale and the (also thoroughly excellent) simply riding around and enjoying it and getting fitter almost as a side effect that Nearholmer talks about above. And of course anywhere along the line between those two opposed points.

Some people really need goals and motivation and thrive on the figures - getting faster / stronger / fitter etc whereas others work best when just left to their own devices to ride around and enjoy the view. There's not really a right and wrong way to do this, only a "what works best for you" approach.