BEVs

[pete75]

Agreed. Is there anywhere it can be found what this costs? My guess is it's into the £billions, but I can't find a reference

What happens with BIK is that less of a person's own money is taken from them. They're not being given anything by the taxpayer.

Nonsense. It's removing income tax from income spent on luxury vehicles. It has the exact same effect as the taxpayer giving them 30% cashback on a £100,000 motor!

I don't think you know how BIK works. People pay more tax through BIK than they would without it. Many years ago, before BIK, people paid no extra tax when they were given a company car.
However any tax relief means less of a person's own money is taken from them. Nobody is giving anything.

[roubaixtuesday]

What happens with BIK is that less of a person's own money is taken from them. They're not being given anything by the taxpayer.

Nonsense. It's removing income tax from income spent on luxury vehicles. It has the exact same effect as the taxpayer giving them 30% cashback on a £100,000 motor!

I don't think you know how BIK works. People pay more tax through BIK than they would without it. Many years ago, before BIK, people paid no extra tax when they were given a company car.
However any tax relief means less of a person's own money is taken from them. Nobody is giving anything.

I understand perfectly. The BIK rate for luxury BEVs is ~ 30% less than for equivalent petrol. That's a 30% subsidy for luxury BEVs

[pete75]

Nonsense. It's removing income tax from income spent on luxury vehicles. It has the exact same effect as the taxpayer giving them 30% cashback on a £100,000 motor!

I don't think you know how BIK works. People pay more tax through BIK than they would without it. Many years ago, before BIK, people paid no extra tax when they were given a company car.
However any tax relief means less of a person's own money is taken from them. Nobody is giving anything.

I understand perfectly. The BIK rate for luxury BEVs is ~ 30% less than for equivalent petrol. That's a 30% subsidy for luxury BEVs

It's applicable to all BEVs, but it ain't a subsidy. How is not having your own money taken away from you a susbsidy? If you do want to criticise folk for being subsidised by the taxpayer, taken aim at the the over 30% of adults who pay no income tax at all. We have a progessive taxation system which means the poor are subsidised by the wealthy.

[roubaixtuesday]

I don't think you know how BIK works. People pay more tax through BIK than they would without it. Many years ago, before BIK, people paid no extra tax when they were given a company car.
However any tax relief means less of a person's own money is taken from them. Nobody is giving anything.

I understand perfectly. The BIK rate for luxury BEVs is ~ 30% less than for equivalent petrol. That's a 30% subsidy for luxury BEVs

It's applicable to all BEVs, but it ain't a subsidy. How is not having your own money taken away from you a susbsidy? If you do want to criticise folk for being subsidised by the taxpayer, taken aim at teh the over 30% of adulst who pay no income tax at all. It's the poor who are subsidised, not the wealthy.

Of course it's a subsidy

Tax that would be paid is instead left exclusively to BEV buyers

Ergo they are subsidised.

Your semantics are tedious

[pete75]

I understand perfectly. The BIK rate for luxury BEVs is ~ 30% less than for equivalent petrol. That's a 30% subsidy for luxury BEVs

It's applicable to all BEVs, but it ain't a subsidy. How is not having your own money taken away from you a susbsidy? If you do want to criticise folk for being subsidised by the taxpayer, taken aim at teh the over 30% of adulst who pay no income tax at all. It's the poor who are subsidised, not the wealthy.

Of course it's a subsidy

Tax that would be paid is instead left exclusively to BEV buyers

Ergo they are subsidised.

Your semantics are tedious

Not as tedious as yours. BIK doesn't apply to BEV buyers, only those who get a car through their employers.
If, as you claim, you're aware of how BIK works you'd know it's based on a vehicle's emissions and a percentage of it's list price. The aim is obviously to get people to choose vehicles which produce less CO2. There's a range of about 30 different BIK payments. The highest rate is about 37% of the new list price per annum. Electric vehicles produce zero CO2 so fall into the lowest BIK band. You can see the figures here https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/w ... ns%20range.
What would you prefer, the same BIK rate for all vehicles?

[roubaixtuesday]

It's applicable to all BEVs, but it ain't a subsidy. How is not having your own money taken away from you a susbsidy? If you do want to criticise folk for being subsidised by the taxpayer, taken aim at teh the over 30% of adulst who pay no income tax at all. It's the poor who are subsidised, not the wealthy.

Of course it's a subsidy

Tax that would be paid is instead left exclusively to BEV buyers

Ergo they are subsidised.

Your semantics are tedious

Not as tedious as yours. BIK doesn't apply to BEV buyers, only those who get a car through their employers.
If, as you claim, you're aware of how BIK works you'd know it's based on a vehicle's emissions and a percentage of it's list price. The aim is obviously to get people to choose vehicles which produce less CO2. There's a range of about 30 different BIK payments. The highest rate is about 37% of the new list price per annum. Electric vehicles produce zero CO2 so fall into the lowest BIK band. You can see the figures here https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/w ... ns%20range.
What would you prefer, the same BIK rate for all vehicles?

Almost all BEVs are bought through company schemes.

We should not be subsidising large, luxury, dangerous and environmentally damaging machines.

All large, expensive high powered vehicles should have the same BIK.

By all means subsidise small BEVS.

[pete75]

Of course it's a subsidy

Tax that would be paid is instead left exclusively to BEV buyers

Ergo they are subsidised.

Your semantics are tedious

Not as tedious as yours. BIK doesn't apply to BEV buyers, only those who get a car through their employers.
If, as you claim, you're aware of how BIK works you'd know it's based on a vehicle's emissions and a percentage of it's list price. The aim is obviously to get people to choose vehicles which produce less CO2. There's a range of about 30 different BIK payments. The highest rate is about 37% of the new list price per annum. Electric vehicles produce zero CO2 so fall into the lowest BIK band. You can see the figures here https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/w ... ns%20range.
What would you prefer, the same BIK rate for all vehicles?

Almost all BEVs are bought through company schemes.

We should not be subsidising large, luxury, dangerous and environmentally damaging machines.

All large, expensive high powered vehicles should have the same BIK.

By all means subsidise small BEVS.

The politics of envy is still well and truly alive.

[roubaixtuesday]

Not as tedious as yours. BIK doesn't apply to BEV buyers, only those who get a car through their employers.
If, as you claim, you're aware of how BIK works you'd know it's based on a vehicle's emissions and a percentage of it's list price. The aim is obviously to get people to choose vehicles which produce less CO2. There's a range of about 30 different BIK payments. The highest rate is about 37% of the new list price per annum. Electric vehicles produce zero CO2 so fall into the lowest BIK band. You can see the figures here https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/w ... ns%20range.
What would you prefer, the same BIK rate for all vehicles?

Almost all BEVs are bought through company schemes.

We should not be subsidising large, luxury, dangerous and environmentally damaging machines.

All large, expensive high powered vehicles should have the same BIK.

By all means subsidise small BEVS.

The politics of envy is still well and truly alive.

You really have no argument whatever, do you?

FWIW my job allows me to have one of these antisocial luxury behemoths under this ridiculous subsidy.

I choose not to.

[reohn2]

There's nothing more nauseating than rich people spouting about how much more tax they pay than everyone else.
Whatever they pay it clearly isn't enough!

CG,RT you're both spot on IMHO

[pete75]

There's nothing more nauseating than rich people spouting about how much more tax they pay than everyone else.
Whatever they pay it clearly isn't enough!

CG,RT you're both spot on IMHO

It's the rich people paying tax who subsidise almost everyone else.

[pete75]

Almost all BEVs are bought through company schemes.

We should not be subsidising large, luxury, dangerous and environmentally damaging machines.

All large, expensive high powered vehicles should have the same BIK.

By all means subsidise small BEVS.

The politics of envy is still well and truly alive.

You really have no argument whatever, do you?

FWIW my job allows me to have one of these antisocial luxury behemoths under this ridiculous subsidy.

I choose not to.

You obviously don't like the things, so think those who do like them shouldn't have one.
You also fail to understand the simple point that not taking people's own money away isn't subsidising them. If that were the case then you and every other taxpayer who receives a personal tax free allowance is being subsidised.

[reohn2]

There's nothing more nauseating than rich people spouting about how much more tax they pay than everyone else.
Whatever they pay it clearly isn't enough!

CG,RT you're both spot on IMHO

It's the rich people paying tax who subsidise almost everyone else.

Yeah right,tell me another....

[Cugel]

The politics of envy is still well and truly alive.

You really have no argument whatever, do you?

FWIW my job allows me to have one of these antisocial luxury behemoths under this ridiculous subsidy.

I choose not to.

You obviously don't like the things, so think those who do like them shouldn't have one.
You also fail to understand the simple point that not taking people's own money away isn't subsidising them. If that were the case then you and every other taxpayer who receives a personal tax free allowance is being subsidised.

It would be interesting to know (however unlikely that we will get to know) the size, costs and pollution levels of cars owned and used by all members of the forum. It would also be interesting to know how much they earn and have in the way of capital and other assets.

It's easy to moan about e-cars being "subsidised" when one's own choice (however large and polluting) is not subsidised. Easy also to take the side of the impoverished whilst being quite well orf oneself.

I know this because I'm often guilty of it. On the other hand, I'd be very happy and willing to pay more tax if the tax regime were changed to the benefit of the less well off. I used to say, "....if everyone else has to" but have lately decided that I'd pay it even if Pete75 doesn't have to, so he can preserve his status, which is obviously important to him.

In short, although he delivers it on the end of a bludgeon, Pete75 has a point.

[roubaixtuesday]

You obviously don't like the things, so think those who do like them shouldn't have one.
You also fail to understand the simple point that not taking people's own money away isn't subsidising them. If that were the case then you and every other taxpayer who receives a personal tax free allowance is being subsidised.

(1) the point is about whether the rest of us should subsidise them. We shouldn't be subsidising luxuries

(2) Is you who does not understand subsidy. Tax breaks are pretty much universally defined as a type of subsidy

Eg


A subsidy is a benefit given to an individual, business, or institution, usually by the government. It can be direct (such as cash payments) or indirect (such as tax breaks).

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subsidy.asp

[roubaixtuesday]

It's easy to moan about e-cars being "subsidised" when one's own choice (however large and polluting) is not subsidised. Easy also to take the side of the impoverished whilst being quite well orf oneself.

I'm not moaning about ecars being subsidised.

I'm moaning about the subsidy being directed at luxury cars.

Subsidising small ecars or ecar infrastructure seems fine to me, or capping the subsidy.

Giving people huge sums of money to buy £100,000 vehicles unsuited to our urban environment is patently neither environmentally, morally or economically sound.