Terminology

[mattsccm]

The kids at the school where I work are doing the Bikeability course this week. The instructor, who is somewhat "idiosyncratic" uses the terms, "follow me" position and "pass me" position. New one on me although I'll admit to being some what out of touch. Are these the current terms or something personal?

[Jdsk]

https://www.bikeability.org.uk/wp-conte ... les-v2.pdf

Jonathan

[mattsccm]

Fair enough. Just seemed a bit odd not to use universal terminology but ....meh.

[pjclinch]

Interesting...
No sign of those in Bikeability Scotland (which is a distinct thing from Bikeability, despite similar overall course layout and branding) as yet.

Pete.

[Nearholmer]

Having just read that guide, I can see the virtue of these terms, especially when teaching kids, or adults who are complete newbies.

Primary and secondary aren’t exactly intuitive in meaning, are they? Try asking ten people who genuinely know nothing about cycling to describe, without tuition, what primary and secondary position are. I’d wager that most will have no idea. Try again with the new terms, and I think you’d get more correct answers.

Things which are intuitive are a lot easier to remember once taught than things which aren’t.

[Jdsk]

I couldn't agree more about "primary" and "secondary".

The best description that I know of riding in the middle of the lane in order to control other road users is "control position".

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

When I did an ACU motorbike-riding course sometime back in the twelfth century, I’m pretty sure it was called “taking the lane”.

[Jdsk]

Yes. Still widely used, but I don't know its official status.

Jonathan

[drossall]

I'm pretty sure I understand the use of primary and secondary, but I struggle to remember which way round the names go.

[Jdsk]

I'm pretty sure I understand the use of primary and secondary, but I struggle to remember which way round the names go.

That’s a pretty good test for not being intuitive!

Jonathan

[mattsccm]

Funnily enough, when another group asked me what she meant I automatically said primary and secondary. Even the dozy kid said " Oh right". Guess we use those terms in other ways in school.
I always felt that keep out or keep in worked best. Doubt it really matters after today.
What did amuse me was the poor kid who races MTB and CX being told to drop her seat so she could touch the ground seated. This is a child who shows many an adult something about bike control on and off the road. A very discrete child, she said loudly "this feels so wrong" and quietly to me "Dad will sort it out tonight". All good fun.

[pjclinch]

I can see what they're trying to do with "follow me" and "pass me" hopefully being clearer than Primary/Secondary. I'm not that fussed either way, I think I could work happily with either, though these things have a habit of lodging in different heads in different ways so a range of possibilities for terminology is probably good - a bit like ways of telling left from right where some things work for some riders but not for others, and different learning styles where some people Really Get It when you demonstrate, others when they do it themselves, others when they read about if afterwards to reinforce, and so on.

With the above "try it different ways until everyone gets it" in mind, the Army Axiom ("any order which can be misunderstood has been misunderstood") may be worth considering: I can picture, "I didn't go to Follow Me position because nobody's following me", or "I didn't go to Follow Me position because the car behind is indicating the other direction, so they shouldn't be following me", or "I was in Pass Me but the driver stayed behind, what was I doing wrong?" and so on.

I have a CPD day for Bikeability Scotland in November, I'll try and remember to bring this up with the Cycling Scotland Tutors and Programme Leads then and see what they say.

Finally, I note that a lot of why teaching position is quite hard is that on the sorts of roads that L2 is taught on there is often vanishingly little difference between the two positions as formally defined in Cyclecraft

Pete.

[axel_knutt]

Neither Follow Me nor Primary Position appear in the Highway Code, so if you use them, motorists are liable to accuse you of just making rules up.

[Bmblbzzz]

When I did an ACU motorbike-riding course sometime back in the twelfth century, I’m pretty sure it was called “taking the lane”.

Never done an ACU course but that's still the way I think of it. I've definitely heard it used in a (pedal) cycling context too, though probably not in the last decade or so.

[Bmblbzzz]

Keep in and keep out seem to require the least explanation, to me. But then we mess it up with inside and outside lane, which are used, bizarrely, the other way round (why is the outside lane in the middle of the road? It never made sense to me!)