UK Politics

[Nearholmer]

Rolls Royce engines and BAE Systems still offer apprenticeships of an equivalent standard.

They do, and there are a precious few others which do to. The problem is that it’s so few. The quality of apprenticeships overall now is very poor, and the drop-out rates extraordinarily high, because trainees “sus” that they aren’t receiving a worthwhile training. IMO, part of the problem is that many firms are very small (a lot of tradespeople are semi-freelance now), and they then employ external parties to do a lot of the support around schemes for them, whereas in bigger firms there can still be a “training department”, which I think sees to a higher quality of scheme, more about seeing to the quality/usefulness of the “finished products” than simply “going through a process”. Training departments also sneak-in pastoral care in a subtle way, which helps avoid teenage minor derailments turning into complete disengagement - even overseeing a grad scheme with more mature trainees, it was surprising how many small nudges in the right direction some trainees needed.

[djnotts]

Never thought I'd swallow conspiracy theories. But the ID proposals? I do not believe that Ministers and their Advisors and Officials think that the scheme can achieve the stated purpose, so there must be other, longer term, reasoning and objectives.

NHS the most obvious. HMRC second. Beyond that I'd rather not think....

[djnotts]

I suppose the ID "cards" will be the prerequisite to FINDING the 750,000 illegals that the Tories would deport. Seems a bit of a random number, given that no official count, certainly not of the numbers who leave. 750K out of how many? ARE there 750K? If can't be found now, how will they be once they have even greater incentive to remain undetected?

Numbers according to AI search:

"AI Overview

There are no definitive official figures for the total number of illegal immigrants in the UK for 2025, as the government stopped providing comprehensive exit check statistics in 2020. Estimates vary, with one analysis by the Migration Observatory suggesting the figure could be between 120,000 and 1.3 million, Migration Observatory data, as cited by YouGov but a recent 2025 report notes that the population of children born in the UK to illegal immigrants is a significant factor in these estimates, a range of 417,000 to 863,000 was estimated."

The resource implications alone are massive. Guess have to be done on "appearance". No digital ID the decider? But then that not mandatory (apparently!) and not for children. Would have to be almost entirely arbitrary to meet the "pledged" numbers - and extremely violent.

Glad I don't have to administer it.

[Nearholmer]

IMO the digital ID could go a long way to facilitate meeting the stated purpose of identifying people who don’t have a right to work in the UK, but only if coupled with pretty hefty detection and enforcement.

To get really deeply into it, it would be necessary to “raid” workplaces or suspected workplaces, and also to “pick up off the street” people who appear to be working in the gig economy, such as food delivery guys. How it would be possible to find people who work from home, especially those who work on-line, I don’t know.

As said, that would drive more dodgy economic activity even further underground than it is now, to the sort of depth that drug production/importation and distribution, cigarette faking and smuggling, etc operate at already, but it would deal with “one layer” of dodgy stuff and the people involved in it. You can’t really operate an underground nail bar, car wash, or vegetable-picking operation, can you?

Introducing it would also send some messages, although whether those messages would reach and impact people who are planning to sneak in by the back door, and put them off, is another question.

TBH, I can’t get straight in my head how much the ID thing is a thought-through attempt to solve a defined set of problems, and how much it is a desperate measure being introduced because there is a widespread perception that there is a problem, and HMG must be seen to be doing something. Detection and enforcement goes on now, although it’s doubtless made more difficult by the absence of a very simple “yes/no” entitlement to work card.

BTW, I don’t believe the conspiracist view that it’s a deliberate thin end of a wedge to a load of other, very oppressive things. But, I do have some pretty deep concerns that cock-up, confusion, and chaos could do their usual and take it to a bad place, tgat a future government with authoritarian tendencies could misuse it, that it could easily drift from being a useful additional way to access services to being the only way, etc.

[Carlton green]

I would observe that the other day thousands of people joined in protests that our current PM would rather have not taken place * . Facial recognition and Digital ID could have captured the presence of any and all of the protestors for whatever punishment the politicians of the day deem fit - indeed the images may already have been captured for when technology to use them becomes more available. imho anyone who doesn’t recognise the exceedingly large potential for (the State’s) abuse of powers is either thick or unimaginative …

* If you think that Starmer is a bit dodgy then you’re in for a massive shock when Farage gets in and then copies Trump.

[Nearholmer]

The plan/proposal seems to have wrong-footed Farage though. He came out against it on grounds of government intrusiveness, but that then begs the question: so, how do you propose to proceed if you get your power, old chap? Badenoch similarly.

The two of them seem to be involved in a bidding war about how many people they would deport if they came to power, but I’ve not heard either describe how they’d actually identify who to chuck out

[cycle tramp]

...in lots of ways there doesn't have to be a logical reason for any leader, elected or otherwise to do seek to do anything...

..I.d. cards were Tony Blair's idea, because he thought they were a good idea.. no doubt Starmer has thought the same...

..here's a quick test as whether someone should be prime minister...
..general public:'do you want to be prime minister?'
..First interviewee: 'Yes, i have some great ideas about how the public should be controlled, and what's good for them' - Instant fail, do not pass go.
..second interviewee: 'no, I have no idea what I'll be doing, need to seek advice all the time from loads of different people and organisations, and I'll be worried that I'll mess everything up' - Corect answer,

[djnotts]

Apparently it's easier to pledge to cut wasteful expenditure by millions of £s than it is to DO it.

FT: BBC News front page summary:

"Also on the front page: Reform UK is poised to raise council tax in Kent, one of the 10 councils it took control of in the local elections in May, as the party "struggles to find big savings" under an Elon Musk-inspired cost cutting drive. Reform's cabinet member for adult social care on Kent County Council, Diane Morton, told the paper that services were "already down to the bare bone". "

Will it be different on a national level.....

[cycle tramp]

Apparently it's easier to pledge to cut wasteful expenditure by millions of £s than it is to DO it.

FT: BBC News front page summary:

"Also on the front page: Reform UK is poised to raise council tax in Kent, one of the 10 councils it took control of in the local elections in May, as the party "struggles to find big savings" under an Elon Musk-inspired cost cutting drive. Reform's cabinet member for adult social care on Kent County Council, Diane Morton, told the paper that services were "already down to the bare bone". "

Will it be different on a national level.....

Er, no. The issue for any party is that once in power they all face the same situations, of which the solutions will upset a number of people...

The next party, whoever they are, will probably cut pip, esa, universal credits and all other benefits. That's suddenly going to leave alot of people who voted for that party wishing they didn't.

Reform have come to power in local elections because historically the turn out has been very low... they've now started to say things like 'we'll stop the right to remain' award - suddenly that's a whole new demograph which may not have bothered voting, voting in the next election.

Whoever comes to power has to deal with a country with an enormous debt, rising homeless numbers, rising cost of living, failing infrastructure, no power-security, a diminishing food security, a depleted reserve of fresh water, an aging population, global warming, a younger generation which already is experiencing health difficulties (mental & physical) as well as a nation which perceives any loss of comfort as a personal insult, and a social media which prevents those from the left and right even being able to agree on those points where agreement is possible..

..given the list of difficulties you'd have to almost have messiah like delusions to fix all of this in four years..

..possibly the only solution is for the general population to discover that potentially we have the answers to such issues ourselves... and only pay a actor to be our prime minister when we need them to shake hands with a leader from another country...

[Cugel]

..possibly the only solution is for the general population to discover that potentially we have the answers to such issues ourselves... and only pay a actor to be our prime minister when we need them to shake hands with a leader from another country...

Ha ha - the notion of libertarians everywhere: no need for a Big Authority as "we" can organise ourselves to better effect. An "invisible hand" will help us all to arrange all of our competing interests and desires into a happy land of suitable-minded traders all happily trading. Not a viking to be seen! Nor an evil plunder-baron with henchmen bloody from top to toe.

Well, it might have been the case in the stone age, before all these large organised tribes started to interact more heavily, eventually forming city-states then nations via a process of widespread murder and mayhem (commonly known as "war"). Today? Sadly, it would seem much more likely to go Mad-Max than into any fine bucolic utopia with rational and kind humans interacting spontaneously to make nice-world. Most would become dead or enslaved.

In short: there is no "we" all of one kindly mind, just the usual churn of nasty little humans doing what they wilt to gain an advantage over all the others, which others are generally regarded as sub-human demons deserving everything we can do to them. Hell is other people, you see.

[djnotts]

Always best to focus on national strengths when trying to grow the economy:

BBC News front page round-up:

"Pubs, clubs and restaurants will be allowed to stay open later as part of government plans to improve economic growth [from the Guardian]. The paper notes that critics say the move will lead to more drunken disorder, describing it as "little more than an alcohol industry wish list". Ministers say the plans will "boost the British night out" and help the hospitality sector."

"We" are pretty good at drunken disorder so let's deregulate ......

[al_yrpal]

Yes, living next to the 'garden' of the village pub we dont welcome this. Roaring drunken oafs with torrents of bad language, pools of sick on the pavements are sometimes a feature of Friday and Saturday nights.
Pubs arent the economy.

Think our remaining manufacturing companies are much more important. Cut business rates, employers NI and corporation tax and red tape.

Where did GROWTH go? Hasnt been mentioned since Labour came to power.

Al

[Nearholmer]

It’s been mentioned a very great deal, in virtually every speech, it just hasn’t happened (yet?) to any appreciable degree. It still feels as if HMG is trying to persuade the economy to get out of bed and do some light exercise after its long illness.

There seems to be a lot of talk about cutting taxes by opposition parties at the moment (I expect they’ll have a bidding war over that, just as they are having over deportation numbers, soon), but I’ve never yet heard a whisper of which services they intend to cut to balance the books. Cutting taxes never, even in the best of times, leads to an instant increase in economic activity that yields compensatory tax income in other areas, so at minimum there is a need to be honest about “borrow or cut” to cover the breathless pause while everyone crosses their fingers and hopes for compensatory growth.

[al_yrpal]

Stupid Reeves in the hard hat, The Dalek shouting Prosecute! Prosecute! Prosecute!, and a so called budget doing the exact opposite of whats needed...... And, the Resolution Foundation pressure group now running the Treasury.

You couldnt make it up! In 4 years I doubt there will be anything whatsoever left.

Al

[roubaixtuesday]

Pubs arent the economy.

Hospitality is a major sector in our economy.

Think our remaining manufacturing companies are much more important. Cut business rates, employers NI and corporation tax and red tape.

Not sure why you value one sector over another, but regardless, I assume you're proposing that the tax cuts you propose would be paid for by increasing your own personal taxes?