"Illegal e-bikes"

[rareposter]

My take on these "illegal e-bikes" is that they should be treated as electric motorbikes, ie must be registered with DVLA (number plates etc), riders should obey all the rules for motorbikes, ie not allowed on pavements and pedestrian streets, rider should have a UK driving license, have insurance, must wear an approved helmet and must obey all traffic regulations.

That is literally already a requirement in law. You can use an electric motorbike / moped. It must be taxed / insured etc.
By using it in the manner they are, it's already illegal. That law already exists, the problem is it's very easy to buy these bikes online with the seller using the disclaimer "only legal on private land" which is a nonsense get-out clause.

I reckon this would put a stop to it.

Umm... It hasn't done so far.

As for the argument about the riders not having the means for the above, they could always use a normal e-bike (which would cost them no more than the illegal ones) or even a human powered bike, maybe that would help them to keep fit at the same time.

Many of the people using such vehicles for food delivery / courier work don't have the legal right to work in the UK. Therefore no driving licence, no address, very little income. Hence no way of legally buying a vehicle, taxing and insuring it and having a driving licence. Some users are too young to have a driving licence. This is all illegal already - part of the reason it's quite difficult cracking down on the Uber Eats / Deliveroo lot is that you end up in a maze of cross-agency stuff around immigration, right to work, sometimes verging into slave labour or exploitation.

A lot of them are doing the only work they can get and the entire system is essentially rigged not just to allow it but to make that the only way they can earn money.

There is no justification for an electric bike than can do 30 mph with no human power involved, tazzing round our streets and pavements.

Wait til you hear about normal motorbikes and cars!

[tykeboy2003]

My take on these "illegal e-bikes" is that they should be treated as electric motorbikes, ie must be registered with DVLA (number plates etc), riders should obey all the rules for motorbikes, ie not allowed on pavements and pedestrian streets, rider should have a UK driving license, have insurance, must wear an approved helmet and must obey all traffic regulations.

That is literally already a requirement in law. You can use an electric motorbike / moped. It must be taxed / insured etc.
By using it in the manner they are, it's already illegal. That law already exists, the problem is it's very easy to buy these bikes online with the seller using the disclaimer "only legal on private land" which is a nonsense get-out clause.

I reckon this would put a stop to it.

Umm... It hasn't done so far.

As for the argument about the riders not having the means for the above, they could always use a normal e-bike (which would cost them no more than the illegal ones) or even a human powered bike, maybe that would help them to keep fit at the same time.

Many of the people using such vehicles for food delivery / courier work don't have the legal right to work in the UK. Therefore no driving licence, no address, very little income. Hence no way of legally buying a vehicle, taxing and insuring it and having a driving licence. Some users are too young to have a driving licence. This is all illegal already - part of the reason it's quite difficult cracking down on the Uber Eats / Deliveroo lot is that you end up in a maze of cross-agency stuff around immigration, right to work, sometimes verging into slave labour or exploitation.

A lot of them are doing the only work they can get and the entire system is essentially rigged not just to allow it but to make that the only way they can earn money.

There is no justification for an electric bike than can do 30 mph with no human power involved, tazzing round our streets and pavements.

Wait til you hear about normal motorbikes and cars!

Yes you're right, so the answer is enforcement. Unfortunately, unless we invest properly in public services we'll never have enough policemen to do it effectively - hence these periodic clampdowns which get a lot of publicity but don't address the problem long term.
Your comment on my suggestion that they use normal e-bikes or normal bikes makes no reference to my suggestion.
Have you got any suggestions of your own? Forgive me if you've already posted some, I've not read the entire thread.

[rareposter]

Your comment on my suggestion that they use normal e-bikes or normal bikes makes no reference to my suggestion.
Have you got any suggestions of your own? Forgive me if you've already posted some, I've not read the entire thread.

As a general rule, there are 3 types of people using illegal e-bikes (be that illegally modified normal bikes, or what are basically electric mopeds / motorcycles).

People doing so legally. They've bought an electric motorbike, they've got it taxed, insured, registered and they ride like any other motorcyclist. Quite a minority.

People doing so knowing that they are illegal. They've bought (or stolen) such a vehicle precisely because it is unregistered and they are using it to commit more crime. It's faster than a bicycle (which means you can catch up to people on nice road bikes, kick them off it, grab the bike and go), it's more versatile than a car for when you're trying to outrun the police and it's quieter than a motorbike, handy for rolling along the pavement undetected before grabbing someone's phone out of their hand.

The food delivery lot who are working such long hours and with such unrealistic targets that they have no option but to use something that permits them to blat along at 30mph without pedalling. The gig economy is a complete Wild West of borderline criminal practices and much as the app companies like Deliveroo and Uber claim to be policing it properly, it's laughably easy to "borrow" someone's account and use it to get your own work, it's easy to photo a legal bike, claim that's what you're using and then get an illegally modified bicycle. They have no money, quite often no legal right to work, sometimes they're being exploited and in that situation no-one is going to go to a reputable bike shop and buy a legal e-bike for £2000 when you can illegally modify one for £500 and go much faster (and therefore get more work).

[tykeboy2003]

Your comment on my suggestion that they use normal e-bikes or normal bikes makes no reference to my suggestion.
Have you got any suggestions of your own? Forgive me if you've already posted some, I've not read the entire thread.

As a general rule, there are 3 types of people using illegal e-bikes (be that illegally modified normal bikes, or what are basically electric mopeds / motorcycles).

People doing so legally. They've bought an electric motorbike, they've got it taxed, insured, registered and they ride like any other motorcyclist. Quite a minority.

People doing so knowing that they are illegal. They've bought (or stolen) such a vehicle precisely because it is unregistered and they are using it to commit more crime. It's faster than a bicycle (which means you can catch up to people on nice road bikes, kick them off it, grab the bike and go), it's more versatile than a car for when you're trying to outrun the police and it's quieter than a motorbike, handy for rolling along the pavement undetected before grabbing someone's phone out of their hand.

The food delivery lot who are working such long hours and with such unrealistic targets that they have no option but to use something that permits them to blat along at 30mph without pedalling. The gig economy is a complete Wild West of borderline criminal practices and much as the app companies like Deliveroo and Uber claim to be policing it properly, it's laughably easy to "borrow" someone's account and use it to get your own work, it's easy to photo a legal bike, claim that's what you're using and then get an illegally modified bicycle. They have no money, quite often no legal right to work, sometimes they're being exploited and in that situation no-one is going to go to a reputable bike shop and buy a legal e-bike for £2000 when you can illegally modify one for £500 and go much faster (and therefore get more work).

I can't argue with any of that.

I guess that you agree with my point about enforcement then?

[rareposter]

I guess that you agree with my point about enforcement then?

100% !

[PH]

The food delivery lot who are working such long hours and with such unrealistic targets that they have no option but to use something that permits them to blat along at 30mph without pedalling. The gig economy is a complete Wild West of borderline criminal practices and much as the app companies like Deliveroo and Uber claim to be policing it properly, it's laughably easy to "borrow" someone's account and use it to get your own work, it's easy to photo a legal bike, claim that's what you're using and then get an illegally modified bicycle. They have no money, quite often no legal right to work, sometimes they're being exploited and in that situation no-one is going to go to a reputable bike shop and buy a legal e-bike for £2000 when you can illegally modify one for £500 and go much faster (and therefore get more work).

I worked in deliveries for six years and this is mostly right. The delivery riders don't really need 30mph bikes, it makes very little difference to the number of jobs you'll get done in a day. They need easy and cheap with swappable cheap batteries. It also needs to be powerful enough to climb the hills at a reasonable speed, which for a cheap motor means more than 250w . These things lead to an illegal bike, and if it's illegal anyway they might as well have the speed. This isn't theory, I spent £3.5k on a legal bike with an additional battery and had as good a jobs per hour ratio as anybody locally - before the gangs took over.
The exploitation of those without the legal right to work here has changed the nature of the business, it's a part of the reason I stopped doing it. The platforms know this is going on, they are a part of that exploitation whilst keeping it at arms length. It isn't always a question of "borrowing" an account, some platforms allow account holders to sub contract and it then becomes their responsibility to check the entitlement to work.
Those doing the sub contracting are often supplying the bikes, it's not even their risk of being caught and prosecuted, though they have lost a few bikes in recent crackdowns.

[mattsccm]

Why not prohibit by law the bikes and anything that can assist others being converted? Our illogical governments', of all flavours, do it with other things. Let's use automatic firearms as an example.
It would help that, along with many other crimes, there was a punishment that made the use of these machines less desirable. I feel that all motoring fines need at least two zeros stuck on the end and failure to pay gets all sorts of sanctions. If dealing with illegal residents there are other methods but lets keep this non political.

[mjr]

Why not prohibit by law the bikes and anything that can assist others being converted?

Because it would put Woosh, Boost and others out of business, while those wanting to DIY a Frankenbike would just make them other ways, unless you're planning to restrict sale of all electric motors and even then, they'd probably just nick them of existing bikes.

The buyers are the problem, not all e-bikes.

[Morzedec]

Tyke - er, in a nutshell, I think. No excuses, action before words.

Education, intelligence, common sense, and self acknowledgement might help. As would a Bobby on the Beat.

[Bmblbzzz]

The buyers are not the problem, they are both the symptom and (in the case of the delivery riders) the victims of the problem. The problem is systemic and as such, enforcement in the form of bobbies on the beat will make precious little difference. Enforcement needs to be at platform level, the platforms being both Deliveroo (etc) and Ali (etc).

[awavey]

I still fear its too late to fix, because legal ebikes are too synonymous with illegal e-motorbikes as a thing theyre near inseperable in the public & medias mind now, and the genie has been let loose and wont go back in the bottle.

make these bikes illegal ? theyre already illegal. . put more bobbies on the beat ? weve got lots of police but their focus is elsewhere thesedays. Stop the Deliveroos using them ? theyll go back to mopeds or rubbish 2nd hand cars that were more dangerous to have on our roads back when take away food delivery was still a thing before e-motorbikes existed, I remember seeing one once who had fitted like a petrol motor from a strimmer once, went crazily fast.

and its not just gig economy workers on them, its kids, its health workers, its even people in seemingly well paid jobs.

theres a rider that keeps blitzing me on a shared path I use on my commute, middle age like in smart casual office wear, not in cycle gear, does about 25-30mph on a shared cycle path, with pedestrians around, not even pretending to pedal, scares the hell out of me because Im not expecting to be overtaken at that speed on a path, and then I get all the grief off the pedestrians for cyclists being "too fast".

[Cugel]

The buyers are not the problem, they are both the symptom and (in the case of the delivery riders) the victims of the problem. The problem is systemic and as such, enforcement in the form of bobbies on the beat will make precious little difference. Enforcement needs to be at platform level, the platforms being both Deliveroo (etc) and Ali (etc).

Exactly so. As with a huge variety of other low-level crimes, the fundamental cause is "businesses" selling or exploiting illegal means to make profits whilst handing off the many deleterious side effects to others, often the whole of society and its citizens. They allow or encourage highly exploitative and damaging business whilst ignoring the illegalities of many others in the form of no real provision of policing, court actions, regulation checks or other means to prevent all sorts of crime benefiting business.

We live in a society utterly corrupted by those intent on riches and power. The hoi-polloi criminals at the bottom of their rotten businesses make not just handy human fodder to exploit as disposable implements of the profit-making but also a handy set of pariah and scapegoat classes to "make an example of". What policing there is seems far more concerned with selecting a few of the hoi-polloi for performative punishment than it does in fixing fundamental causes and agents of vast illegalities of many kinds.

In reality, its been the case for decades - or even since policing was invented. The police are primarily for the protection of The Establishment, whatever its current form, not really for protection of the hoi-polloi.

[Bmblbzzz]

I still fear its too late to fix, because legal ebikes are too synonymous with illegal e-motorbikes as a thing theyre near inseperable in the public & medias mind now, and the genie has been let loose and wont go back in the bottle.

I just don't think that's true. In fact, I think it's more likely the majority of people fail to distinguish between a legal e-bike and a standard non-electric bike. People do not see a Lime bike (other hire companies are available), a commuter on an electric folder, or an electric cargo bike, to take three common examples, and think of them as "illegal e-motorbikes".

Where there is confusion, is between illegal e-bikes (those which do not comply with the regulations or which are made by lashing batteries into the frame of an old mtb using loads of gaffer tape, for instance) and the commercial, potentially legal but in practice unregistered (therefore also uninsured) electric motorbikes being ridden on the streets.

[deeferdonk]

i wonder if there is the same issue in countries with specific S-pedelec legislation. I'd have thought that introducing a simpler way to buy and register a legal alternative, alongside a crackdown on the illegal ones would be the only real practical way to reduce the issue significantly.

[tykeboy2003]

Saw one today, firstly on an off-road track (disused railway line) and later on the road, belting along at 30mph plus, (going up hill, feet stationary), no license plate. The rider was wearing a motorbike-style helmet.

Where are the police when they're needed?