Fixed Penalty Advice. Incorrect Signage

[Andyfuntley]

This is the sign...as it appears on Google Streetview.
Completely reversed and in keeping with what I would expect and what I would say is required.

I'm not doubting you for a moment, however if you are to use that as a defence, then I would suggest that you obtain your own, dated image of that.. and if the police have recorded their interaction with you - I would also hope that the same sign is captured on their own body cam.
My own experience dealing with FPNs is from the otherside, which was dealing with customers who have made appeals against parking fines. Certainly as previous custom advisor, the amount of information that you can supply in a defence is critical at this point - and that an image of a sign incorrectly mounted with a very close date on it (to the date of the FPN) will trump an image taken from google Street View.
The other thing which crosses my mind, is an FOI request to the council or town council, which reported that the cycling sign was facing the wrong way.
It's worth remembering is that its possible to amass evidence and still have it completely ignored for other reasons. Again going back to my experience with parking FPNs, such reasons could include, there was history of other breaches by the same customer, and that the customer was considered to live close enough to be aware of these restrictions, without the reminder of that sign being present at that particular moment.

Yes. I was showing the disparity between the photos I took on the day and photos on Streetview. Streetview version is correct in my opinion and if it were it like that on the day I wouldn't be arguing the case.

[slowster]

Some great info guys, really appreciate all of it.
Here's the ticket...requested several times.

https://offencecode.uk/offence/ride-a-p ... assengers/

The offence code states that the ticket/notice was issued under the Highways Act (consistent with 'Offence Wording: Cycle on the Footway'), i.e. the notice is not for an offence under the byelaw.

Incidentally, if the notice had been issued under the byelaw, I think the argument that the signage was inadequate might be less likely to succeed. Although the road signs are the same as used on the highway under the Highways Act, the requirements for signage/publicity to warn the public about byelaws are apparently less precise/onerous. In other words, the byelaw prohibits many activities, including fishing, kite flying, horse riding etc., and there is evidently no requirement that there must be signage about all the prohibited activities in prescribed forms and at prescribed locations, such as at all points of entry to the areas subject to the byelaw.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-gover ... on-byelaws

The local authority must publicise the fact that a new byelaw has been made at least 7 days before the day on which the byelaw comes into force. Signs should be placed near the area where the byelaw applies (except where this is not practicable, for example because the byelaw has effect throughout the authority’s whole area) so that, as far as possible, people are made aware of the byelaw.

The local authority must also publicise the new byelaw on its website, if it has one, and publicise the new byelaw in such other manner as it sees fit.

[Nearholmer]

Some authorities go to great effort though. There is a large common local to me, which is governed by vast numbers of bylaws, and at each gate (there are only three, I think), there is a notice about the size of a table-tennis table, listing all the shalls and shall nots. I used to be convinced that, since barely anything else is allowed on the common, cycling wasnt, but one day I read it all very closely and discovered that the list includes a “nothing in the foregoing shall prohibit”, allowing “vehicles which are not mechanically propelled”, which I think includes bikes, and other people clearly think does too, so now I cycle across it.

[Andyfuntley]

Some great info guys, really appreciate all of it.
Here's the ticket...requested several times.

https://offencecode.uk/offence/ride-a-p ... assengers/

The offence code states that the ticket/notice was issued under the Highways Act (consistent with 'Offence Wording: Cycle on the Footway'), i.e. the notice is not for an offence under the byelaw.

Incidentally, if the notice had been issued under the byelaw, I think the argument that the signage was inadequate might be less likely to succeed. Although the road signs are the same as used on the highway under the Highways Act, the requirements for signage/publicity to warn the public about byelaws are apparently less precise/onerous. In other words, the byelaw prohibits many activities, including fishing, kite flying, horse riding etc., and there is evidently no requirement that there must be signage about all the prohibited activities in prescribed forms and at prescribed locations, such as at all points of entry to the areas subject to the byelaw.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-gover ... on-byelaws

The local authority must publicise the fact that a new byelaw has been made at least 7 days before the day on which the byelaw comes into force. Signs should be placed near the area where the byelaw applies (except where this is not practicable, for example because the byelaw has effect throughout the authority’s whole area) so that, as far as possible, people are made aware of the byelaw.

The local authority must also publicise the new byelaw on its website, if it has one, and publicise the new byelaw in such other manner as it sees fit.

Thank you. Great information.
Where do you think I should go from here? I'm thinking I'd like to get the precise reason for the "no cycling" signs/restriction. I'm assuming you must have either a byelaw or a TRO to erect "no cycling" signs. Assuming they are there for the byelaw, does it then matter if its a footway/footpath etc. If I have been issued an fpn under the highways act for cycling on a footway, but its not a footway (in the legal sense, i.e. a part of a carraigeway) ...but an area covered by a byelaw....then do I have a case for incorrect issue of the fpn?

[cycle tramp]

At this point, I would seek legal advice as to whether the wrong offence code was used on the FPN - perhaps an organisation like the cyclist defence team..
It's possible that if the wrong code was used the FPN may be unenforceable.

[cycle tramp]

...so having piled 'fixed penalty notice byelaw' into the search engine and pressed 'images' a number of fpn appeared from different councils.
Although the subject matter was different, for each notice, each notice gave the byelaw number and a full description of the offence...

..in this case its worth seeking out whether your FPN has been issued incorrectly and is therefore not enforceable...

..its possible that the police were only given a mandate for stopping cycling in the high street, which is why they weren't issued any other paperwork.
But baby steps, speak with someone who works in legal, is good and ideally free

[slowster]

Where do you think I should go from here? I'm thinking I'd like to get the precise reason for the "no cycling" signs/restriction. I'm assuming you must have either a byelaw or a TRO to erect "no cycling" signs. Assuming they are there for the byelaw, does it then matter if its a footway/footpath etc. If I have been issued an fpn under the highways act for cycling on a footway, but its not a footway (in the legal sense, i.e. a part of a carraigeway) ...but an area covered by a byelaw....then do I have a case for incorrect issue of the fpn?

I think its most unfair and would ideally like to challenge it....I'm told the only option is in a magistrates court.... is this true...I've also read about informal challenges....any mileage in that?

I have never been given a fixed penalty notice, but I would expect the document itself to provide information about how to challenge the notice. I would expect that only the police would be able to withdraw the FPN, given that a police officer issued it and the stated offence was under the Highways Act, not the byelaw. In other words, I doubt there would be any point in contacting the council, even if the police 'crackdown' was undertaken at the council's request to enforce the byelaw - the notice has not been issued under the byelaw, and it is probably solely now a matter for the police to decide about going ahead with proceedings at a magistrate's court or withdrawing the notice etc.

I am not a lawyer, but I doubt the FPN is enforceable, and I would expect a magistrate to throw the case out, *assuming* that the esplanade/area in question is indeed not covered by the Highways Act (the fact that a byelaw was passed prohibiting cycling and motor vehicles is compelling evidence that it is not covered by the Act). In an ideal world, if you were to contact the sergeant/inspector or whoever is responsible for Hampshire police FPNs and cases where they are challenged and go before magistrate, and explained to them what had happened, they would withdraw the FPN once they had checked the status of the esplanade and checked with the officer who issued it.

Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world, and I would not be confident of the police's response to being made aware of the mistake, not least since they have issued FPNs to a number of people cycling on the esplanade. Withdrawing them all would be embarrassing. Having to explain to the councillors who asked for the crackdown that all the FPNs had to be withdrawn would be embarrassing. If the local press gets hold of the story, that would be embarrassing. So it would not surprise me if the police proved reluctant to acknowledge their error.

[basingstoke123]

Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world, and I would not be confident of the police's response to being made aware of the mistake, not least since they have issued FPNs to a number of people cycling on the esplanade. Withdrawing them all would be embarrassing. Having to explain to the councillors who asked for the crackdown that all the FPNs had to be withdrawn would be embarrassing. If the local press gets hold of the story, that would be embarrassing. So it would not surprise me if the police proved reluctant to acknowledge their error.

This could go either way with the press or popular opinion: the authorities (Police) exceeding their powers and issuing invalid fines, or cyclists finding a loop hole to avoid paying fines for cycling in an area that clearly prohibits cycling.

[cycle tramp]

Some great info guys, really appreciate all of it.
Here's the ticket...requested several times.

Just looking at that ticket again - ideally there should be a location given. But there's not (or at least one I can't see). It might be an oversight.. but another question has crossed my mind.. where the Police instruction only to ticket those people cycling on the high street, and then move into a different area (without the correct FPN notices) on their own accord, without the knowledge of any senior police officer?

The other thing I've noticed, is that the recipients signature isn't signed at the bottom... can you remember signing it to say you had received it? If not - it's another question for the legal team

[cycle tramp]

One last question...
The officer who issued the FPN, did they strike you as being young or perhaps even not very well acquainted with that form?

[Andyfuntley]

Some great info guys, really appreciate all of it.
Here's the ticket...requested several times.

Just looking at that ticket again - ideally there should be a location given. But there's not (or at least one I can't see). It might be an oversight.. but another question has crossed my mind.. where the Police instruction only to ticket those people cycling on the high street, and then move into a different area (without the correct FPN notices) on their own accord, without the knowledge of any senior police officer?

The other thing I've noticed, is that the recipients signature isn't signed at the bottom... can you remember signing it to say you had received it? If not - it's another question for the legal team

Its possible they moved in from the high street, the campaign as publicised on social media and the local press only mentioned the High Street, not the esplanade. Entirely possible that they over-reached.

There is no location listed, hadn't thought of that. Surely there should be.

They offered me the option to sign it. I asked "do I need to" the policeman said "no, it makes no difference." I said in that case I won't. Was he wrong I wonder.

[Andyfuntley]

One last question...
The officer who issued the FPN, did they strike you as being young or perhaps even not very well acquainted with that form?

There were two police people. One older lady and the chap was younger. The whole stop was flustered and muddled. The lady started dealing with me. Then two other cyclists came along who they then started dealing with. I asked if I was free to go. They said no, then the chap came and dealt with me...taking all the same details again. The process was dreadful. Another reason to request any bodycam footage.

[cycle tramp]

Some great info guys, really appreciate all of it.
Here's the ticket...requested several times.

Just looking at that ticket again - ideally there should be a location given. But there's not (or at least one I can't see). It might be an oversight.. but another question has crossed my mind.. where the Police instruction only to ticket those people cycling on the high street, and then move into a different area (without the correct FPN notices) on their own accord, without the knowledge of any senior police officer?

The other thing I've noticed, is that the recipients signature isn't signed at the bottom... can you remember signing it to say you had received it? If not - it's another question for the legal team

Its possible they moved in from the high street, the campaign as publicised on social media and the local press only mentioned the High Street, not the esplanade. Entirely possible that they over-reached.

There is no location listed, hadn't thought of that. Surely there should be.

They offered me the option to sign it. I asked "do I need to" the policeman said "no, it makes no difference." I said in that case I won't. Was he wrong I wonder.

Sadly I don't know, but it's worth speaking to the legal team. If you were being filmed by body cam, then perhaps not. However, it is something to bring up with an independent legal team , together with the fact that the location wasn't noted on the FPN.
Certainly from my own experience of dealing with parking fpn, the location always had to be noted to allow for any appeal.

If there was someway of bringing your concerns about the situation with the Police, but without actually admitting you were riding a bike in an area where you shouldn't, I would speak with thePolice first...
..however what we would rather not happen is that by speaking to the police in the first instance, they then use your statement against you snd issue you with a correct FPN.. which is why some sort of legal advice should be sought..

[Bonefishblues]

OP, did you know in advance that cycling on the Esplanade was prohibited, or did you unwittingly stray onto it because the sign at your entry point was reversed?

[Andyfuntley]

OP, did you know in advance that cycling on the Esplanade was prohibited, or did you unwittingly stray onto it because the sign at your entry point was reversed?

The latter. Not a single sign was seen (or is visible) in the short distance beween the highway and the esplanade. It was entirely unobvious.