Fixed Penalty Advice. Incorrect Signage

[Sum]

If this was your first visit to the esplanade and it was an honest mistake caused by the incorrect signage, then you could try contacting the issuing authority and request that the FPN be withdrawn on grounds of fairness, as described by Thirdcrank here: viewtopic.php?p=1634114#p1634114.

That's assuming you can find someone at the police station that will listen to you and has the authority to knock the FPN on the head. It would be in their interest to listen to you if you have a good case, as going to court will tie up their police officers preparing for the case and attending court on the day.

I think this is one such example where it worked: viewtopic.php?p=565538#p565538

Another approach may be to pay the FPN to avoid the expense of going to court, and then afterwards contact the police station that issued it: viewtopic.php?p=1634662#p1634662. If you do this then obviously you won't have any leverage associated with fighting the court case.

[Andyfuntley]

I have now filled in a Subject Access Request for video footage of my whole interaction with the police. They have a month to respond, i.e longer than the time I have to challenge the ticket.
I have also contacted the local council for the second time. I would like someone to confirm the area in question does not come under the highways act.

What would/should the offence code/wording be for cycling in a prohibited area under the terms of the byelaw.

I'm thinking I have every right to challenge a fine for something I havent done, i.e. I haven't cycled on a footway, (that being part of a highway, etc etc)

Reading up on it a bit I gather its unlikely that a fpn with a minor detail error would get cancelled...but surely the wrong offence code/wording and no location is a bit more significant. Its not a wrong name or registration plate. Its literally a different offence. I don't ever ride on footways (pavements)...this was not a footway.

Any other suggestions of legal advice, recommended solicitors etc?

[EdT]

I suspect the offence should have been HY35014 but paying the fine is probably cheaper than paying a solicitor.

[Andyfuntley]

I suspect the offence should have been HY35014 but paying the fine is probably cheaper than paying a solicitor.

I think that offence refers to footpaths. From the definitive map its not a footpath. Such a minefield!
I'm not sure which way I'm going with it yet, still taking advice. The cost bothers me less than the principle...up to a point.

[Andyfuntley]

Today I have examined the high street for signage. Its completely pedestrianised. There are large dual sets of signs everywhere, stating Pedestrianised Area and No Cycling. There are at least 20 signs just on the main drag. Every side path has the same signage on entering the main area.
This is in total contrast to the esplande where not a single sign exists once you have entered the area
I'm sensing some over-reach on the original task of sorting the high street out.
I have once again asked the council to clarify the ownership/designation of the esplanade.....

[drossall]

Even in "pedestrianisation" our council messed up. They introduced a very good scheme, some decades back, to our High Street but, seemingly, their officers completely failed to understand the distinction between an order saying no motor vehicles (which was what was made), and actual pedestrianisation. So they briefed the police, on the first day it was introduced, to stop cyclists - which the police did, with no legal basis whatever for doing so. For some years, the scheme had signs at the entrance saying both "No Entry" and "No Motor Vehicles", which essentially contradict each other and, in the case of the first, were not justified by the order in force.

It still gets confusing now. The High Street leads into the Market Square. There's a tendency to run some quite good events in the space, from French markets to charity events to seasonal stuff. But some of those necessitate excluding bikes, and they are often quite unclear about what's allowed for the duration.

Mind you, at one point the same council had a very good cycle track into town from a village a couple of miles away, with a No Vehicles sign on the far end making it apparently illegal to use That sign did disappear when they got around to it.

[Sum]

I have once again asked the council to clarify the ownership/designation of the esplanade.....

Someone had previously linked to Google Streetview which showed a sign referring to "Borough of Gosport Byelaw No. 47".  I couldn't find that whilst searching on the internet but I could find reference to  "Seashore Byelaws 2022" on the Gosport Borough Council website: https://www.gosport.gov.uk/Seashore-Byelaws-2022.

I assume this is the relevant byelaw, since it covers cycling on the esplanade region where you was stopped by the police: https://www.gosport.gov.uk/media/3900/S ... educed.pdf

The byelaw prohibits cycling on the seashore in section 7 on pg. 3.  The seashore is defined in sec. 1 as the area of beach and foreshore shown coloured in pink in Schedule 1.  The schedule includes the esplanade region on pg. 11 (you will have to rotate the page and zoom in).  So I would say that the esplanade where you was stopped comes under that byelaw, and not under sec.72 of the HWA which is for footways beside the road.

Para (7.)1 in sec.7 of the byelaw prohibits riding a cycle on the seashore without reasonable excuse.  If you made an honest mistake due to the incorrect signage, and you wasn't already aware of the cycling ban from previous visits to the area, then you may have a reasonable excuse.  I would contact the police station that issued the FPN, explain your case and ask for the FPN to be withdrawn.  If they don't then you can still go down the solicitor/court route if you wish, which is where you seem to be heading.

NB If you haven't already done so, I'd report the faulty sign to prevent this from happening to others.  For reporting traffic signs, the Gosport Borough Council website refers you to the Hampshire County Council Highways website: https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/high ... rokensigns 

[Andyfuntley]

I have once again asked the council to clarify the ownership/designation of the esplanade.....

Someone had previously linked to Google Streetview which showed a sign referring to "Borough of Gosport Byelaw No. 47".  I couldn't find that whilst searching on the internet but I could find reference to  "Seashore Byelaws 2022" on the Gosport Borough Council website: https://www.gosport.gov.uk/Seashore-Byelaws-2022.

I assume this is the relevant byelaw, since it covers cycling on the esplanade region where you was stopped by the police: https://www.gosport.gov.uk/media/3900/S ... educed.pdf

The byelaw prohibits cycling on the seashore in section 7 on pg. 3.  The seashore is defined in sec. 1 as the area of beach and foreshore shown coloured in pink in Schedule 1.  The schedule includes the esplanade region on pg. 11 (you will have to rotate the page and zoom in).  So I would say that the esplanade where you was stopped comes under that byelaw, and not under sec.72 of the HWA which is for footways beside the road.

Para (7.)1 in sec.7 of the byelaw prohibits riding a cycle on the seashore without reasonable excuse.  If you made an honest mistake due to the incorrect signage, and you wasn't already aware of the cycling ban from previous visits to the area, then you may have a reasonable excuse.  I would contact the police station that issued the FPN, explain your case and ask for the FPN to be withdrawn.  If they don't then you can still go down the solicitor/court route if you wish, which is where you seem to be heading.

NB If you haven't already done so, I'd report the faulty sign to prevent this from happening to others.  For reporting traffic signs, the Gosport Borough Council website refers you to the Hampshire County Council Highways website: https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/high ... rokensigns 

Excellent advice. Thank you kindly.
I have been back again and found there are two exits from the road (The Esplanade) onto the actual esplande. Neither of them is correctly signposted. One has a reversed no cycling sign. (Not visisble) The other has nothing. You go through the No Cars and Motorbike sign, then straight onto the Esplanade. You go past a reference to Byelaw 47....with no mention of cycling.

[Andyfuntley]

NB If you haven't already done so, I'd report the faulty sign to prevent this from happening to others.  For reporting traffic signs, the Gosport Borough Council website refers you to the Hampshire County Council Highways website: https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/high ... rokensigns 

Interestingly I contacted Hampshire Highways the day after the FPN was issued. They replied quickly saying it wasn't under their remit.
I'm on my third attempt at getting any response out of Gosport Borough Council. Apparently my queries have been sent to the Streetscene Team....whover they are...but as yet no contact.
Thinking about it.....the only sign in the whole area detailing a byelaw seems to be for a byelaw that may no longer exist. I.e. 47
The police on the day appear to have entered the area via the busiest entrance, by the ferry terminal/bus terminal/taxi rank where there are plenty of no cycling signs. They have clearly not done any checking of access to that area via alternative routes.
The more I think about it...its a farce...but the only official appeal/challenge is via the courts. I'm not too expectant of finding an interested party at the police station...but will try.

[Nearholmer]

What’s the biggest fine you can get if you allow it to progress towards court?

I ask, because when I was issued with a parking penalty charge notice that I knew I had a solid defence against, I responded first by saying I wouldn’t pay, and stating my reasons, then deliberately ignored subsequent threatening letters until I got a notice from the court. The notice asks you to state any defence, so I stated my defence in detail, with photographic evidence. I heard nothing for absolutely ages, then eventually got a further notice saying that the complainant no longer wished to pursue the matter.

[Andyfuntley]

What’s the biggest fine you can get if you allow it to progress towards court?

I ask, because when I was issued with a parking penalty charge notice that I knew I had a solid defence against, I responded first by saying I wouldn’t pay, and stating my reasons, then deliberately ignored subsequent threatening letters until I got a notice from the court. The notice asks you to state any defence, so I stated my defence in detail, with photographic evidence. I heard nothing for absolutely ages, then eventually got a further notice saying that the complainant no longer wished to pursue the matter.

For the cycling bit I think the limit is £500. I'm guessing there may be extra court costs additional to that.
Thank you for giving a bit more detail on the process.
Last night I started to look at the ticket, they have not filled in the number properly either. No "Penalty Code" this makes it impossible to pay...as the first thing you need is the 16 digit code, of which the penalty code forms the last 2 digits.
Then I examined the process to challenge it, Step 1....fill in the pink slip. ..... Guess what I havent been given. Another error. So now I can't challenge it.
Fine...I'll go to the police desk....oh they dont have one anymore....bar someone in the town hall.
The list goes on.
No location of offence listed.
No pink slip to challenge.
No penalty code.
Potentially the wrong offence code.
Potentially the wrong offence wording.
Incorrect/absent signage.

I don't now whether to just let them come for me and release this lot...or to chase them now. I'm relieved to hear you present your defence before you actually go to court.

[Sum]

I'm relieved to hear you present your defence before you actually go to court.

NB The process for dealing with PCNs is different to that for FPNs: https://www.gov.uk/parking-tickets/challenging-a-ticket

For example, a PCN can be challenged before it goes to court, but you can't do that with a parking-related FPN. I would be careful about assuming that you will be given an opportunity to present your defence before you go to court.

[Andyfuntley]

I'm relieved to hear you present your defence before you actually go to court.

NB The process for dealing with PCNs is different to that for FPNs: https://www.gov.uk/parking-tickets/challenging-a-ticket

For example, a PCN can be challenged before it goes to court, but you can't do that with a parking-related FPN. I would be careful about assuming that you will be given an opportunity to present your defence before you go to court.

Oh yes, good point.
Thank you.

[Andyfuntley]

Just a little update and to say thanks again for all your advice.
I paid the FPN in the end. Solicitors are horrifically expensive. I feel I would have needed legal representation to stand a fighting chance in court.
The police were not at all interested in the errors in the issuing of the notice. The council have been dreadful to deal with...I'm still awaiting clarification of the actual designation of the area and the byelaws that apply.
I have filed an official complaint to the constabulary, the fairness, the process and the discretion was all lacking in this case. I simply hope to be able to talk it through with someone.
As uptight as I was about it, It simply makes little sense to fight over a £50 fine when everything and everyone is stacked against you.

[Bonefishblues]

That seems like a sensible way forward, with more to come.