Breakfast for a demanding day ride?

[pjclinch]

You said...

If you stopped eating gels, flapjacks, EmmaPooleySuperOatyScienceyFoods etc, and replaced them with real food from a normal (non-athletic) diet, you would suffer no harm

I would say there's a clear inference to be drawn from that that EmmaPooleySuperOatyScienceyFoods are not real food, because were it otherwise you couldn't replace them with "real food from a normal (non-athletic) diet".

OK, let me spell this out:
- I don't know what Emma Pooley eats (or recommends)
- I haven't read her book.
- I don't own her book.

If you had any sense you would read my comments in that context.

Well, I'd have been rather more likely to do that if you'd pointed out that context before now!

So do you think there is any point continuing to obsess over focus on the role of the PooleyBurger in this debate? Do you have evidence that they are the most common meal consumed by sports cyclists? Have they been a big feature of other forum threads on nutrition?
Do you think a debate about general sports/cycling nutrition should focus on pjclinch's favourite athlete-recommnded snacks?

(Did you see any of the other foods/products in my posts?)

I've given you the basic recipe, whether there's any point in continuing to worry about it would depend on whether you think it constitutes real food: how will I know if you don't actually say, having previously implied you think it isn't? If you do, say so and we can write it off as misunderstanding, if you're not sure ask for more diagnostic info, if you think it's not then say why.

Real food as opposed to e.g. gels has certainly been a feature of forum threads, so as an example of (I think, the author thinks) real food (that happens to contain a fair few carbs, but not refined sugar) I brought it up as relevant to wider discussion here. I raised it as an example as it's something I've used and has been formulated particularly with cycling in mind: it won't stick to everything and is robust enough not to be crumbs after a few miles. It's an example of a significant wider thing (portable, cycle friendly real food), nothing more, nothing less.

I did see the other things you'd mentioned. I didn't comment on them because I see the point in replacing them with "real food", so no comment was needed.

Pete.

[Morzedec]

[Sweep]

edited to add: if you are going to 'carb load' you need to do it the day before; like a big meal of pasta, or something.

Very true I think. Having only half read/digested that advice I once carb carb carb loaded with plates of pasta one early evening years ago before setting off on the all-night Dunwich Dynamo. I felt like *** until at least half way through it.

[atoz]

There's been some really interesting opinions on this thread. All I would say from a purely personal perspective is that a high carb breakfast doesn't work for me, whether cycling or not. Also as a result of cutting out excessive sugar sources my blood sugar is now in the normal range again. I'd like to keep it that way.

My energy levels on the bike are definitely better as a result of these changes, but this may not work for others. It does make you wonder if some of us have genetic heritages that favour more fat and protein in our diet. After all, many people on the planet are lactose intolerant- fortunately I am not one of them, and tolerance to lactose is a known adaptation. What other adaptations have been made? Makes you think.

[pjclinch]

What other adaptations have been made? Makes you think.

Where historical populations have had a certain diet forced on them they'll have evolved to get what they need from it. Inuit & Sami populations probably spent many centuries not getting their 5 a day fruit and veg, particularly in winter, for example.

Pete

[Jules59]

I just eat what I feel like for breakfast and just keep eating and drinking as I ride along. I like Aldi Jive and fig rolls to eat along the way.

[atoz]

What other adaptations have been made? Makes you think.

Where historical populations have had a certain diet forced on them they'll have evolved to get what they need from it. Inuit & Sami populations probably spent many centuries not getting their 5 a day fruit and veg, particularly in winter, for example.

Pete

In low carb circles the argument goes that our ancestors were very much meat eaters and therefore an overdependence on carbs esp refined sugars is pretty much guaranteed to create health issues as our bodies are designed to deal with significant levels of food from animal sources. The question would be, are some humans more affected by this than others? We know what has happened to Inuit, Native Americans and others when they have changed from their traditional eating patterns- their health has declined. There has been questioning of the high carb model for sport at least in part because of its long term implications eg insulin resistance and eventual type 2 diabetes. How many ex pro cyclists have obesity and related health issues?

[ANTONISH]

I just eat what I feel like for breakfast and just keep eating and drinking as I ride along. I like Aldi Jive and fig rolls to eat along the way.

Seems sensible - what's Aldi jive?

[Bmblbzzz]

With the Inuit, Native Americans (North and South), and peoples across Asia, Africa, Polynesia, replacing traditional diet with Western diet has coincided with many other changes; end of nomadism, replacement of subsistence agriculture with mass agricultures, sedentary lifestyle, different buildings, new materials, and of course new diseases, along with alcohol, tobacco, etc. Obviously, in some cases the changes go both ways; the West has also been introduced to new drugs, diseases, and diets. And equally obviously, the Western diet has itself changed massively over that time. None of which means there can't be local adaptations, but that the effect is not just one thing.

[pjclinch]

What other adaptations have been made? Makes you think.

Where historical populations have had a certain diet forced on them they'll have evolved to get what they need from it. Inuit & Sami populations probably spent many centuries not getting their 5 a day fruit and veg, particularly in winter, for example.

In low carb circles the argument goes that our ancestors were very much meat eaters and therefore an overdependence on carbs esp refined sugars is pretty much guaranteed to create health issues as our bodies are designed to deal with significant levels of food from animal sources.

"Our ancestors" covers quite a lot of scope. Our dentition and digestive tracts suggest we've evolved as omnivores, and looking at other omnivorous apes the one regarded as "most carnivorous" is (at least according to Google) the chimpanzee which has about 2-3% meat in its diet, fruit being far more important.

Sami and Inuit have/had significantly carnivorous diets out of necessity of having migrated to places where foraging for fruit and veg didn't get them very far.

But I'm not sure my ancestors were necessarily just as carnivorous as a mountain Lapp of similar vintage.

The question would be, are some humans more affected by this than others? We know what has happened to Inuit, Native Americans and others when they have changed from their traditional eating patterns- their health has declined. There has been questioning of the high carb model for sport at least in part because of its long term implications eg insulin resistance and eventual type 2 diabetes. How many ex pro cyclists have obesity and related health issues?

As Bmblbzzz suggests there's a bit more needed than finding a typical Inuit today may have a less healthy diet than their great, great grandparents.

If we find a cohort in a relatively less developed country that has subsisted for a long time mainly on rice and fruit with enough extras for protein, will changing their diet to primarily lamb chops make them a lot healthier? I have doubts...

Obese ex-elite athletes... Is that too much carbs, or just too much in general? If you eat 5000 calories a day to keep up with your output it can, I imagine, be very hard to cut intake to match the new outputs. I've read that huge, long efforts like round the world cycling records takes a very extended and careful "warm down" to be as healthy as possible about it.

Pete.

[atoz]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with what the low carb levels lobby claim. But I'm not a fan of the higher carb advocates either- especially from the vegetarian and vegan lobby espousing the Eat Lancet diet.

I used to be quite sceptical of low carb until I had to cut my own carb intake. I'm lower carb, not low carb. I'm not a carnivore - unlike my neighbour's cat. Don't fancy fillet of mouse!

Interestingly some of the highest world rates of diabetes are in countries that traditionally don't eat much meat or saturated fat. Make of that what you will. And of course high rates of refined carbs and sugars don't help- like in the USA, the land where they think whole milk is bad for you but eat chlorinated chicken.

Think the jury's out on this one...

[pjclinch]

Had to look up EAT-Lancet, but it doesn't strike me as obviously worrying. Back to our ancestors, we were hunter-gatherers (like chimps today, I think), and it looks at least superficially from a one-minute read in large part the sort of diet our prehistoric person might have foraged.

Before we'd developed tools I doubt it would have been the case that diets could be planned and selected, so I'd expect human bodies to be quite flexible when it comes to keeping going with whatever they were presented with, at least given certain minimums. However, I suspect that a body regularly presented with more food than it actually needs (so fat storage goes from very necessary saving for inevitable rainy days to being a compounding obesity problem) and far more refined than it ever evolved for it hits problems.

With elite endurance athletes you also have someone well beyond the realm of normal when it comes to energy consumption, so I think it may be difficult to generalise too much from them. If you need to burn the energy that would fuel 5 normal people you come up against working with however you can get that much in, which may well not be long term healthy (PFP's tightly monitored weight loss for this year's TDF is a related case in point where everyone concerned pointed out it was not a long-term healthy diet, but was the way to get up Alps in a very targeted time window and win the race).

For correlation of diet and diabetes one could also work along the lines that the African nations doing very well have low levels of obesity from more rural lives and less easy access to plentiful food - as well as what you eat, how much is going to have an effect. The various diets laid out strike me as primarily management programmes which mean those partaking of them are careful with what they eat, and while what's in it tends to be the headline I suspect that the quantity is important. You can have too much of a good thing, but that doesn't make the good thing generally bad - when it comes to eating salt is an obvious example: too much will kill you, too little will also kill you...

Pete.

[mattheus]

When we talk about evolution (a VERY important aspect of understanding human biology/psychology!) we should bear in mind that it selects for people who reproduce efficiently (in which I include rearing their young to sexual maturity). And to some extent kill their non-relatives before they reproduce.

So evolution does not select for long lifespans, or for healthy comfortable retirements.

[Jdsk]

When we talk about evolution (a VERY important aspect of understanding human biology/psychology!) we should bear in mind that it selects for people who reproduce efficiently (in which I include rearing their young to sexual maturity). And to some extent kill their non-relatives before they reproduce.

So evolution does not select for long lifespans, or for healthy comfortable retirements.

I recommend The Selfish Gene. The thing that is optimised in selection is neither the individual nor the species.

Current thinking is that in humans and some other species elderly members increase the survival of the relevant genes by caring for younger individuals who share them. That isn't captured by "reproduce efficiently". This type of model explains the menopause and is supported by the increasing evidence of the importance of having *grandparents around. Comfortable old age and long lifespans after the sexual part of reproduction may be very useful.

Jonathan

* For example in giraffes:
https://www.popsci.com/animals/giraffe- ... ypothesis/

[mattheus]

...
* For example in giraffes:
https://www.popsci.com/animals/giraffe- ... ypothesis/

Great article, thanks. Think I'll find this useful:
"...giraffes’ reputation of aloofness is reinforced by their slow, sparse movements. But those behaviors are actually energy-conserving strategies"

I'm not aloof - I'm just conserving energy!