Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

User avatar
Swizz69
Posts: 402
Joined: 3 Aug 2008, 12:25am
Location: Hyde

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby Swizz69 » 11 Oct 2009, 9:38pm

The 4 miles should be an undeniable fact

Thats it in a nutshell. 4 miles is a fact, 20 minutes is a guess.

Does anyone on here find any of this 'special treatment' (routes/signage/lanes) necessary? Okay, some farcilities may come in handy, but if getting rid of the bad ideas meant living without all of them could you (caution: extreme sarcasm) cope without???

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby meic » 11 Oct 2009, 11:17pm

Personally I dont need either distance or time on the signs. All I want is the NCN route number and the direction. I know before I leave where I am going and how far it is and can guess how long it will take.

I imagine most people on the forum will be the same. So yet again I say that I dont think we are the target that Sustrans are aiming for.

These signs are probably aimed at "non-cyclists."

Most people havent even heard of Sustrans (or the CTC either :lol: ).

That is the situation they are working on.
Yma o Hyd

User avatar
Si
Moderator
Posts: 15012
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:37pm

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby Si » 12 Oct 2009, 1:53pm

Would be nice if those routes along side major commuter routes had times such as "City centre 10mins" next to the bike picture, so all those sat in cars in a queue of traffic would look up and think, "hang on, it's normally takes me 30mins in the car - how come a bike can do it in 10? I'm going to have to try the bike out".

But the rest of the time (which is 99.9 out of 100) I agree that distance (and some guide to surface) would be best.

Flinders
Posts: 3012
Joined: 10 Mar 2009, 6:47pm

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby Flinders » 12 Oct 2009, 6:35pm

I've seen these signs for walkers in Shropshire. they are, without exception, complete small round things, and are the most misleading and useless signs I have ever seen anywhere.
One suggests, if memory serves, a time for a distance and height even a fell runner on speed couldn't manage. As for suitable for novices- this sort of nonsense is more likely to get them into trouble and/or the sort of frustration that causes people to give up.
If Sustrans really are using them, then that really puts the tin lid on Sustrans for me.

sirmy
Posts: 591
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:53am

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby sirmy » 12 Oct 2009, 6:49pm

skrx wrote:My concern is that "Paddington 4 miles" will become "Paddington 20 minutes", and I won't know if that's 20 minutes at 4:30 on Sunday, or 17:30 on Thursday with the shopping.


Not really a problem as, legally, road signs have to show distances in miles. In Darlington, one of the cycling demonstration towns, permission had to be obtained from the DfT before putting up signs with timings rather than distance.

The reasoning for the signs is simple, someone new to cycling may be put off by the thought of having to riding 3 miles but not if they thought t would take 20 minutes. If Sustrans are putting up signs with timing they will be limited to their off road routes on which it should be possible to obtain fairly reliable timings.

User avatar
DaveP
Posts: 3227
Joined: 9 Mar 2007, 4:20pm
Location: W Mids

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby DaveP » 12 Oct 2009, 7:27pm

sirmy wrote:
skrx wrote:The reasoning for the signs is simple, someone new to cycling may be put off by the thought of having to riding 3 miles but not if they thought t would take 20 minutes. If Sustrans are putting up signs with timing they will be limited to their off road routes on which it should be possible to obtain fairly reliable timings.


No, the mileage is unambiguous and common to all users, times and purposes.
New cyclists may be daunted by reading that they have three miles to go, but surely most of them will be reassured by a glance at their bike computer - if youve done two already then three aint so bad, now, is it? etc. etc.
What will be demoralising is to find out that they have taken half an hour to cover a journey that is supposed to take ten minutes. To be honest, that would bother me too after a while - you know how it is - been trying for a month, cant get it below twelve minutes, I'm useless...
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully...

skrx
Posts: 188
Joined: 5 Jan 2009, 12:23pm
Location: South West Inner London

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby skrx » 12 Oct 2009, 7:59pm

sirmy wrote:Not really a problem as, legally, road signs have to show distances in miles.


What I linked to is the Department for Transport's proposal to change this requirement.

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby thirdcrank » 12 Oct 2009, 8:37pm

skrx wrote: ...
The actual proposal is on page 52 of Annex A.


I'm not sure that many people are going to download a 3mb pdf file just to wade to p 52 ..........

I've downloaded it on my other computer for the CYCLISTS DISMOUNT thread and I'll have a look. In the meantime, I assume that is so metric distances can be sown, rather than encouraging innovative mileposts. (FWIW I don't think imperial is compulsory - direction signs often omit distance altogether - it's just that if it is shown, it must be imperial.)

skrx
Posts: 188
Joined: 5 Jan 2009, 12:23pm
Location: South West Inner London

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby skrx » 12 Oct 2009, 10:51pm

thirdcrank wrote:I'm not sure that many people are going to download a 3mb pdf file just to wade to p 52


Sorry, I didn't realise 3MB might take a while for some people. The blog post covers the proposals for the direction signs, reading the PDF isn't really any benefit unless you want to write to the DFT about it.

In the meantime, I assume that is so metric distances can be sown, rather than encouraging innovative mileposts.


The only metric/imperial thing they're proposing is to force bridge height and width restrictions to be in both ft/in and metres, at the moment the metres are optional -- this is to help foreign (and presumably British but born after 1970...) drivers.

byegad
Posts: 3232
Joined: 3 Sep 2007, 9:44am

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby byegad » 13 Oct 2009, 8:43am

Why not both? I think the times help new cyclist decide on whether or not they should extend their ride, to the rest of us the distance is more informative.
"I thought of that while riding my bike." -Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

2007 ICE QNT
2008 Hase Kettwiesel AL27
2011 Catrike Trail
1951 engine

swansonj
Posts: 321
Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 9:53pm

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby swansonj » 13 Oct 2009, 11:06am

Does anyone know, in the places where this has been trialled, what speed they actually use to calculate the times?

BTW, you've all missed the most important proposal in the whole consultation on road signs - in future, it is proposed, the sign "migratory toads crossing" may be posted between January and May, not just between February and May as at present, to take account of changing toad migration patterns.

John

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby meic » 13 Oct 2009, 2:32pm

From my experience of working rides with Sustrans, it will be done by riding the route, not by calculation and the riding speed will be torturously slow.

Unless it has delays from things you can not control you can probably expect to complete the distance a lot quicker.

I have no inside knowledge but anything else would surprise me.
Yma o Hyd

Richard Fairhurst
Posts: 1382
Joined: 2 Mar 2008, 4:57pm
Location: Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 14 Oct 2009, 10:01am

Signs are put up by local authorities, not Sustrans.

For details of the Aylesbury pilot scheme, see http://www.cycleaylesbury.co.uk/index.php?id=9 . It says "The signs show an estimate in minutes of the journey time based on the national average cycling speed. Obviously, if you’re a confident and experienced cyclist you will be able to do it faster."

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/sustainable/c ... future.pdf also says "Cyclists in Aylesbury who may be deterred by a sign which tells them their destination is two miles away are now encouraged by a sign that says it should take fifteen minutes instead." I can't argue with that. It wouldn't work in rural areas (so citing the 'Mendip Cycleway' as an example in the new regulations is daft), but Aylesbury isn't exactly rural.
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby meic » 14 Oct 2009, 1:00pm

Richard said

"Signs are put up by local authorities, not Sustrans."

It wont stop them getting the blame though. :lol:
Yma o Hyd

sirmy
Posts: 591
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:53am

Re: Proposed new NCN signs -- without distances

Postby sirmy » 14 Oct 2009, 6:52pm

DaveP wrote:
sirmy wrote:
skrx wrote:The reasoning for the signs is simple, someone new to cycling may be put off by the thought of having to riding 3 miles but not if they thought t would take 20 minutes. If Sustrans are putting up signs with timing they will be limited to their off road routes on which it should be possible to obtain fairly reliable timings.


No, the mileage is unambiguous and common to all users, times and purposes.
New cyclists may be daunted by reading that they have three miles to go, but surely most of them will be reassured by a glance at their bike computer - if youve done two already then three aint so bad, now, is it? etc. etc.
What will be demoralising is to find out that they have taken half an hour to cover a journey that is supposed to take ten minutes. To be honest, that would bother me too after a while - you know how it is - been trying for a month, cant get it below twelve minutes, I'm useless...



Most cyclepaths, the most obvious place to post signs with timings, have a design speed of between 10 and 12 mph so timings would be based on these speeds. Of course the whole point is that it's all in the head, if I asked you to run for 10 mins or 1 1/2 miles, which would you prefer? Most new cyclists, who wold probably be using their new steed to go to the shops or something wouldn't have a computer, look at the pictures on Copenhagen cycle chic a guilty pleasure) and see how many of them have computers. These signs aren't aimed at CTC members or people in training for LEJoG but the mother who drops her kids off at school and the pops down to Asda for a pit of milk.

Another point on distances, having recently done the wording for some footpath and bridleway signs, they are only accurate to a couple of hundred metres, a 1/4 mile could be anything from 350m to 600m. Distances over a mile need only be done to a half mile