Subsidising motorists

Edwards
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Subsidising motorists

Postby Edwards » 20 Jan 2011, 9:08am

I have read on this forum that the true cost of motoring is subsidised by general taxation. The figure quoted at the moment is 21p a mile.
If in a discussion about the cost of motoring especially fuel does any one know if road fuel duty is included in the cost of the subsidy.
I do not want to get caught out when asked where the information I use comes from and have to reply "From an Internet cycling forum". This does not seem a reliable source.

I have tried a search to find the amount of duty raised but can only find this. I am not certain that this is a good reliable source.

300 million pounds a day does seem to be a lot of money extra in 2010 for motorists to have paid into the treasury in Road Fuel Duty. I am not certain how much the cost of motoring is supposed to cost the tax payer in total. But would like to find out.
Keith Edwards
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Steady rider
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby Steady rider » 20 Jan 2011, 9:58am

I don't have the data you are looking for, but I have noticed Tesco give 5p off petrol when you spend £50 in store. Cyclists using their bikes cannot claim this discount even if they spend £50, similar with pedetrians, discrimination in policy.

i will fish around for data to help you.

Edwards
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby Edwards » 20 Jan 2011, 10:05am

Thank you Steady rider. I have been looking but can not find any reliable sources of information.
I just do not want to look a right idiot by quoting something from here that is wrong.
Keith Edwards
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John-D
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby John-D » 20 Jan 2011, 10:22am

Edwards wrote:I do not want to get caught out when asked where the information I use comes from and have to reply "From an Internet cycling forum". This does not seem a reliable source.




Especially as they'll probably quote this back at you:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... -over.html

Edwards
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby Edwards » 20 Jan 2011, 10:40am

John-D wrote:Especially as they'll probably quote this back at you:


That is the type of thing I am on about. However I would not call the Sun a reliable source, only reliable for page 3.
Keith Edwards
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meic
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby meic » 20 Jan 2011, 10:44am

The Sun are of course missing a lot from the debit side of those accounts while relying safely on their readers being too bigoted or stupid to notice.

We all pay 8% tax on our domestic fuels and to the best of my knowledge the government gives us nothing directly back for that money.
You dont get given your tax money back directly as if it is paying for a service do you?
Yma o Hyd

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby hubgearfreak » 20 Jan 2011, 10:50am

i can't find the thread, it was some time ago

but why not start with the sun's figures? i assume that theyr're annual?

they've got a cost there for roadbuilding; check if this includes road repairing too

add in the 2500 deaths, loss of productive members to economy

ambulance & funeral & police & court costs of those 2500

a figure for 25000 seriously injured, the police, the amubulance, hospital treatment and time off work this causes

police, ambulances and time off if also incurred in minor injuries, how many thousands of them are there?

find a figure for the cost of asthma and similar, then find out what part of this could be road vehicle induced? i can't think that there's significant other air pollution, at least in this city

the sun don't mention council gritters on that page, but i'm certain they occasionally do. that's not free to the ratepayer

there's a few police left monitoring traffic...what does that cost us?

any costs to cover the damage of climate change, about 1/3 (you'll need to check) the motorist's fault

it'll take some searching, but the sun really have only told a fraction of the story there.

Edwards
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby Edwards » 20 Jan 2011, 10:58am

Meic I appreciate your point, however it does not address the issue of motorists taking ont of the tax system more than they put in.
The same can be said of domestic fuel, but the is not being made about them.

Hubbers I take your points but do have a question? In the recent snow disruption a claim was made about the the amount lost to business because of people who could not use the roads.

All this is monopoly money to me, however 300 million pounds a day increase in revenue in one year seems such a huge amount. Even if we add up all the cost given could we not be challenged.

If we want and need to say general taxation not raised directly from the motorist is indeed subsidising them we need a good case and real figures to back up the claim.
Keith Edwards
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Mick F
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby Mick F » 20 Jan 2011, 11:12am

Steady rider wrote:I don't have the data you are looking for, but I have noticed Tesco give 5p off petrol when you spend £50 in store. Cyclists using their bikes cannot claim this discount even if they spend £50, similar with pedetrians, discrimination in policy.
Whilst I think you are correct in this "discrimination", I'm not too sure it's valid.

Tesco are giving discount on "another product" when you send £50 in store. The fact that you don't want that product is besides the point.

What about BOGOFs? There are many times when a BOGOF or another offer isn't taken up by us. Just how many bottles of ketchup do we want? I take the older people to the supermarkets when I drive the Community Bus - doing it tomorrow - and they complain all the time that the discounts and offers are of no use to them. They'd prefer money off the bill.

Maybe that's what we all want, but the supermarkets want to shift their stuff - and petrol.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby kwackers » 20 Jan 2011, 11:14am

Edwards wrote:
John-D wrote:Especially as they'll probably quote this back at you:


That is the type of thing I am on about. However I would not call the Sun a reliable source, only reliable for page 3.

I doubt it's reliable even on page 3. They may pass it off as fact but often you find their figures are artificially inflated...

snibgo
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby snibgo » 20 Jan 2011, 11:25am

It depends on what costs are included, of course.

For examples, the report cited by the Sun (http://www.ifs.org.uk/comms/r68.pdf) decided to ignore the cost of accidents: £15.8b to £30b. ("Reported Road Casualties Great Britain 2009")

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby hubgearfreak » 20 Jan 2011, 11:45am

Edwards wrote:Hubbers I take your points but do have a question? In the recent snow disruption a claim was made about the the amount lost to business because of people who could not use the roads.


the loss was only to businesses that use the roads, just about exclusively with motors.

if your business was developing websites, or cleaning houses locally or something else that didn't rely on cars & vans, then no loss was incurred.

it's for motorist's benefit that the roads are gritted, and that cost is £2m in leicestershire alone, a reasonably compact county compared to lincolnshire, devon or north yorkshire

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/n ... ticle.html

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby hubgearfreak » 20 Jan 2011, 11:52am

here's a figure for the health costs of air pollution, from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8578952.stm

"The health costs of pollution are estimated at between £8.5bn and £20.2bn each year, with the report also warning that the UK risks "substantial" fines for its failure to meet EU regulations on limiting pollutants.

The committee said major changes were needed to policies on transport, which accounts for up to 70% of pollution in towns and cities. "

you could estimate that the motorist's share of this range of estimates is anywhere between £5bn and £14bn.

add that to snibgo's link to the cost to society for accidents and the suns surpluss (£17.9bn) that they claim the motorist contributes is soon cancelled out

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby hubgearfreak » 20 Jan 2011, 12:30pm

page 34 of snidgo's link shows the total miles done on our roads. 2004 (from the dept. of transport)

car and taxi 398 bm km
light vans 61 bn km
HGV 29 bn km

we'll get to an answer for you yet :wink:

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Subsidising motorists

Postby hubgearfreak » 20 Jan 2011, 12:42pm

snibgo wrote:the report cited by the Sun (http://www.ifs.org.uk/comms/r68.pdf) decided to ignore the cost of accidents: £15.8b to £30b. ("Reported Road Casualties Great Britain 2009")


is this the cost of repairing the living casualties or a total including an estimate for the deaths?
what page did you find it on please?