Cars are weapons

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gilesjuk
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Cars are weapons

Postby gilesjuk » 21 Mar 2012, 9:43am

That's a quote from the mother who had her 8 year old son killed by some reckless idiots from Kwik Fit in this tragic case:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-17443608

It makes you wonder how common this sort of problem is, garage employees borrowing customer cars for a joy ride. It certainly makes you wonder why bad drivers are allowed to cause such misery to people. Sure, they get caught and a jail sentence, but that doesn't bring back the dead.

daveg
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby daveg » 21 Mar 2012, 9:54am

You are quite right, nothing can put things right. Everyone suffers consequences. As a father with four children I have no idea how I would start to deal with loss like this.

Without blaming anyone, I'm amazed that the car was taken from Kwik Fit. I would have thought that they were reputable and there would be a reasonable expectation that employees would behave properly. I did notice that the taking of the car was aggravated which can mean that damage was done in the taking so perhaps this happened outside of normal hours.
If it wasn't for cars, there wouldn't be the amount of tarmac that there is.

gilesjuk
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby gilesjuk » 21 Mar 2012, 12:07pm

Well it is a problem for the business. Can you ever stop someone doing something they shouldn't? I guess not, employees can borrow the keys and return later.

But without the cars being impounded in a compound they are going to be vulnerable. But I don't think you would leave your car there overnight? especially a Porsche.

It just upsets me to keep reading all these stories of children losing their lives to selfish adults in cars. It seems to be seen as acceptable or part of life and so nothing ever changes.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby [XAP]Bob » 21 Mar 2012, 12:59pm

6.5 years?

Ridiculously low sentence.
No mention of lifetime driving ban either.
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Deckie
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby Deckie » 22 Mar 2012, 8:57am

Unfortunately this "taking" of vehicles is VERY common, especially with more expensive types. They are left at the garage for a service, or whatever work is required, and the mechanics, service managers or whoever happens to be there at the time just has to take it out for a "test drive" to make sure it is running correctly for the customer...

My cousin had a Subaru Impreza a few years ago. It went in for a service (booked in first thing in the morning so he dropped it in the night before) and didn't come out for three weeks. That's how long it took to source a new engine after the service manager used it for the night & tried to impress kids in a supermarket car park doing donuts.
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daveg
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby daveg » 22 Mar 2012, 9:32am

Deckie wrote:Unfortunately this "taking" of vehicles is VERY common, especially with more expensive types. They are left at the garage for a service, or whatever work is required, and the mechanics, service managers or whoever happens to be there at the time just has to take it out for a "test drive" to make sure it is running correctly for the customer...

My cousin had a Subaru Impreza a few years ago. It went in for a service (booked in first thing in the morning so he dropped it in the night before) and didn't come out for three weeks. That's how long it took to source a new engine after the service manager used it for the night & tried to impress kids in a supermarket car park doing donuts.


Never thought of it that way, but I can see that there might be a culture of "borrowing" the car, given the opportunity.

Kwik Fit always returned my 12 year old Vauxhall Astra on time - feel a bit let down now.
If it wasn't for cars, there wouldn't be the amount of tarmac that there is.

daveg
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby daveg » 22 Mar 2012, 9:40am

[XAP]Bob wrote:6.5 years?

Ridiculously low sentence.
No mention of lifetime driving ban either.


Sentencing must be very difficult. Nothing can compensate for the loss of life and the pain of the family. Interestingly there was a lady on local TV last night who had lost her daughter in a road accident abroad who was pleading clemency for the person who was driving on the basis that why ruin other lives too. Don't know the answer to that.

This lad will not have an easy time in prison. His fellow inmates will make sure of that. Is it in the interests of society for him to be released contrite and regretful for his actions and willing to make reparation by being useful, or do we just want him bitter and criminalised? Again, don't know answer but having spent some time in different prisons in different roles I remain very unsure about the effectiveness of prison in most cases.
If it wasn't for cars, there wouldn't be the amount of tarmac that there is.

irc
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby irc » 22 Mar 2012, 10:04am

daveg wrote:This lad will not have an easy time in prison. His fellow inmates will make sure of that. Is it in the interests of society for him to be released contrite and regretful for his actions and willing to make reparation by being useful, or do we just want him bitter and criminalised? Again, don't know answer but having spent some time in different prisons in different roles I remain very unsure about the effectiveness of prison in most cases.


Prison is 100% effective though at protecting the public at large from further crimes by the person concerned while they are inside. Few first offenders are sent to prison. IMO Anyone who takes the life of another person through a deliberate act or like in this case a dangerously reckless act deserves to go to prison though whether a first offender or not.

I agree that the deterrent effect of a prison sentence to career criminals is limited but it is the only thing they fear. Any non custodial outcome is viewed as "a result!".
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Cunobelin
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby Cunobelin » 22 Mar 2012, 10:13am

Deckie wrote:Unfortunately this "taking" of vehicles is VERY common, especially with more expensive types. They are left at the garage for a service, or whatever work is required, and the mechanics, service managers or whoever happens to be there at the time just has to take it out for a "test drive" to make sure it is running correctly for the customer...

My cousin had a Subaru Impreza a few years ago. It went in for a service (booked in first thing in the morning so he dropped it in the night before) and didn't come out for three weeks. That's how long it took to source a new engine after the service manager used it for the night & tried to impress kids in a supermarket car park doing donuts.


Trouble is the "Top Gear Culture"

Clarkson et al are infamous for this type of damage to cars. MOst journalists realise that if youare after TopGear with a test vehicle, you might as well give up now!

Even when it is a specialised car loaned to them, there is no respect.


There are three C Type Jaguars in the world. One was raced in the original LeMans 24 hour and is worth over a million.

After discussion with the owner Top Gear were celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the car's entry anniversary and borrowed the car for filming

They then trashed the tyres, gearbox and driveshaft doing donuts in a car park!

The owner's complaints that he had expected it to be driven as intended on a racetrack, and that donuts in a car park were not a reasonable use of the vehicle received the reply that he should have expected this!



Is there any real difference between the idiot from the attitude of these joyriders and the idiots from Top Gear ?

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Cunobelin
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby Cunobelin » 22 Mar 2012, 10:19am

Slightly OT.

My father was contacted by the local Police some years ago over a speeding ofence (85 mph in a 30 mph zone, at 2 am)

He pointed out that he did not have the car, it was in a local garage being serviced and MOT'ed

Long arguments ensued when the Garage denied all knowledge. Eventually one of the managers was forced to come forward, admit the offence and was prosecuted.

After that my Father always had a pre-written statement that he insists the Garage signs as to the exact mileage recorded at the time of the handover.

When he picks up the car he then checks the mileage and more than 10 miles has to be justified.

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meic
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby meic » 22 Mar 2012, 10:46am

irc wrote:
daveg wrote:This lad will not have an easy time in prison. His fellow inmates will make sure of that. Is it in the interests of society for him to be released contrite and regretful for his actions and willing to make reparation by being useful, or do we just want him bitter and criminalised? Again, don't know answer but having spent some time in different prisons in different roles I remain very unsure about the effectiveness of prison in most cases.


Prison is 100% effective though at protecting the public at large from further crimes by the person concerned while they are inside. Few first offenders are sent to prison. IMO Anyone who takes the life of another person through a deliberate act or like in this case a dangerously reckless act deserves to go to prison though whether a first offender or not.

I agree that the deterrent effect of a prison sentence to career criminals is limited but it is the only thing they fear. Any non custodial outcome is viewed as "a result!".


The other thing that is ignored by the "Justice System" is that prison works very well on the vast majority of law abiding people who remain law abiding simply because they dont want to risk going there. To say prison doesnt work after looking ONLY at the small proportion of society for whom it didnt work is a mistake they all seem happy to keep on making.
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daveg
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby daveg » 22 Mar 2012, 11:43am

meic wrote:
irc wrote:
daveg wrote:This lad will not have an easy time in prison. His fellow inmates will make sure of that. Is it in the interests of society for him to be released contrite and regretful for his actions and willing to make reparation by being useful, or do we just want him bitter and criminalised? Again, don't know answer but having spent some time in different prisons in different roles I remain very unsure about the effectiveness of prison in most cases.


Prison is 100% effective though at protecting the public at large from further crimes by the person concerned while they are inside. Few first offenders are sent to prison. IMO Anyone who takes the life of another person through a deliberate act or like in this case a dangerously reckless act deserves to go to prison though whether a first offender or not.

I agree that the deterrent effect of a prison sentence to career criminals is limited but it is the only thing they fear. Any non custodial outcome is viewed as "a result!".


The other thing that is ignored by the "Justice System" is that prison works very well on the vast majority of law abiding people who remain law abiding simply because they dont want to risk going there. To say prison doesnt work after looking ONLY at the small proportion of society for whom it didnt work is a mistake they all seem happy to keep on making.


Are you suggesting that as a "law abiding person" it is fear of prison that keeps me as such? I can only speak for me but it doesn't act as a deterent for me simply because I've never thought of it that way. I also know that ending up in prison is something that could happen to me via a combination of circumstances that may be beyond my control. Remote that may be but it remains a possibility.

As I said in my earlier post, I don't know the answer but from my observations prison does not seem to work for a significant number of offenders and it costs an absolute fortune.

Equally non custodial sentences may or may not be succesful, but observation would suggest to me that where we are looking at getting an offender to correct behaviour then non custodial is more likely to make that happen. Non custodial can be tough in terms of restrictions and I've known offenders ask for custody in preference to non custody. Unusula but it happens
If it wasn't for cars, there wouldn't be the amount of tarmac that there is.

bensonboo
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby bensonboo » 23 Mar 2012, 11:51am

I left my motorbike with my usual garage for some work years ago, I turned up and was told it would be an hour or so. I wandered up the road about a mile or so to the local chip shop and was sat outside eating some chips when along came a mechanic on my bike and ordered various different meals obviously for everyone in the garage. I let him pay and return to my bike carrying his couple of bags of food before suggesting I would ride back to the garage and have a word while he would have to run back if the staff wanted their food warm. :evil:

JohnW
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Re: Cars are weapons

Postby JohnW » 25 Mar 2012, 8:07pm

Cunobelin wrote:.......................Trouble is the "Top Gear Culture"......................Is there any real difference between the idiot from the attitude of these joyriders and the idiots from Top Gear ?



Yes - those who watch "Top Gear" Clarkson et al, and idolise and hero worship them for their idiocy are one difference............ and the fact that Clarkson et al get a lot of money for being idiots is another difference.