Riding Two Abreast.

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 13 May 2012, 4:00pm

3putter wrote:
DevonDamo wrote:My 2p: Don't ride two abreast when there's anything behind you, ever. It's just antagonistic. We are usually slower than other vehicles - on fast roads or uphills sections, much slower. We must accept that drivers will want to overtake us at the first opportunity. By riding close to the kerb single file, either close together or with a car-sized gap between you, you're signalling that you're trying to help drivers overtake you safely. In my experience, drivers usually reciprocate by giving you miles of room and making sure they've got plenty of room to complete the overtake. There are, of course, idiots on the roads too, but attempting to block them where you consider it unsafe to overtake will not necessarily make you any safer. The driver will not know that you are riding two-abreast in order to postpone their overtake until a more suitable point - they will just think you are having a nice chat and don't care about the hold-up you are creating. Having an angry idiot behind you may not improve your situation.

In my experience, cycling in the gutter encourages close passes and is therefore more dangerous for the cyclist.

From the op, if the road is not wide enough for a car to safely pass a single cyclist without crossing the white line, then it should make no difference if cyclists are riding two-abreast. Cars will still have to cross to the other side of the road to overtake safely.



+1

If there isn't enough room overtake then my position in the lane makes no odds at all. "Leave as much room as you would leave a car" is what the HC advises - that's a whole lane IMHO, some of which will be to the left of the cyclist.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 13 May 2012, 4:44pm

TonyR wrote:The only reason they cant get past is they insist on driving around two abreast, often without even having the excuse of a passenger occupying the other seat. There would be plenty of room on the road for everybody otherwise. :wink:


Most cars are three abreast actually - look at the back seats...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Big T
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby Big T » 13 May 2012, 7:25pm

DevonDamo wrote:My 2p: Don't ride two abreast when there's anything behind you, ever. It's just antagonistic.


Since there will nearly always be something behind you, then you can never cycle 2 abreast, then. A couple of weeks ago, i was out with my wife and son and we were singled out and a driver came past leaning on his horn. We were obviously antagnosing him, just by being on the road. Perhaps we shouldn't ride in groups at all, even in single file?
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Benethi
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby Benethi » 13 May 2012, 8:00pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:"Leave as much room as you would leave a car" is what the HC advises - that's a whole lane IMHO, some of which will be to the left of the cyclist.


How are cars meant to leave other cars a whole lane? Possible maybe where there are two lanes in one direction by going over into the oncoming lane...
Really, most cars do not give each other much room when overtaking. I'd like more room than that.
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roadvader
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby roadvader » 13 May 2012, 10:04pm

out for a ride yesterday and was two abreast,car came up and we singled out,but you could here the car not braking or slowing down,they were coming through!!!,you know the ones,cant stop got to be somewhere,anyway the problem was here that they overtook and did not think what was coming the other way,they forced the oncoming car to skid to a halt,almost forcing them off the road,thats another problem i have seen a lot of lately.

but mostly unless i have literally nearly been killed i let it go and give no reaction,i dont want to be rammed or stabbed,had a mate recently have a knife pulled on him,bloke told him to just ride off or else,he took the number and reported it but was told the plate was not related to that car!!!..there out there,nut jobs,just be careful!
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RichardPH
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby RichardPH » 13 May 2012, 10:29pm

DevonDamo wrote:My 2p: Don't ride two abreast when there's anything behind you, ever. It's just antagonistic. We are usually slower than other vehicles - on fast roads or uphills sections, much slower. We must accept that drivers will want to overtake us at the first opportunity. By riding close to the kerb single file, either close together or with a car-sized gap between you, you're signalling that you're trying to help drivers overtake you safely. In my experience, drivers usually reciprocate by giving you miles of room and making sure they've got plenty of room to complete the overtake. There are, of course, idiots on the roads too, but attempting to block them where you consider it unsafe to overtake will not necessarily make you any safer. The driver will not know that you are riding two-abreast in order to postpone their overtake until a more suitable point - they will just think you are having a nice chat and don't care about the hold-up you are creating. Having an angry idiot behind you may not improve your situation.


100% agree, but don't expect too much support for yours [and my] attempts to foster a good relationship on the roads, there are many who simply must assert themselves, no matter what the cost. I've never ever been hit or even touched by a motor vehicle and as you report, my getting out of their way usually results in them giving me loads of room and often a thankyou wave.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 13 May 2012, 11:42pm

Benethi wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:"Leave as much room as you would leave a car" is what the HC advises - that's a whole lane IMHO, some of which will be to the left of the cyclist.


How are cars meant to leave other cars a whole lane? Possible maybe where there are two lanes in one direction by going over into the oncoming lane...
Really, most cars do not give each other much room when overtaking. I'd like more room than that.

Because a car takes a whole lane you can't leave less...

I'm not talking gap - I'm talking space.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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timmyhiggy
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby timmyhiggy » 15 May 2012, 9:33pm

In town, I will only do that if there is a row of empty parking bays or something, so you can still allow plenty of room for a drunken moron writing a text message to go by in his porsche cayenne.
Outside of towns, I tend to go mostly on country lanes, so I stick to the rule of keep half an eye on what the situation is like behind you and if there is something behind then stay single file until it has gone, even if it means coasting slowly in a farm's driveway to make a bit of extra room. I would rather do that than uphold my right to cycle in the middle of the lane and have a stressful ride worrying about the person mowing me down out of impatience! Driving a car brings out the impatient psycho in a lot of people, best to not give them too much of a chance to hulk up and do some damage...

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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby Ayesha » 16 May 2012, 7:55am

I take my position on the road in the same manner as I would riding a moped.

In a 30 limit, I am not riding less than 33% of that limit ( 10 mph ), so I am NOT a 'slow moving vehicle' and can take a position on the carriageway wherever I deem safest.

In the US however, some states have the 'slow vehicle' law which says the vehicle impeding 5 or more vehicles in a flow of traffic MUST pull over to allow following vehicles pass. This is seen on Californian hilly roads where a "Stopaside" area appears every so often on an uphill.

I still abide by this law when cycling up a hill in the UK.

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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby northstar » 16 May 2012, 9:44am

I rode alongside a police officer on a bike yesterday in richmond park, talking to him and a black cab driver still tried to intimidate us by driving at us - policeman said nothing.

Just about sums it up.

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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby Ayesha » 16 May 2012, 10:23am

If I shake my fist at a cabbie, it means I would like to knock his head off. This is not a criminal offence. If I did hit him in the trap, it would be assault.

The cabbie made a gesture of anger with his vehicle, which is not a criminal offence. If he'd hit you, it would be assault and/or attempted murder.
( See 'Bristol bus driver' ).

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 16 May 2012, 1:25pm

Ayesha wrote:If I shake my fist at a cabbie, it means I would like to knock his head off. This is not a criminal offence. If I did hit him in the trap, it would be assault.

The cabbie made a gesture of anger with his vehicle, which is not a criminal offence. If he'd hit you, it would be assault and/or attempted murder.
( See 'Bristol bus driver' ).


Erm - isn't assault a threat and battery an actual act of violence...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby Ayesha » 16 May 2012, 2:41pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Ayesha wrote:If I shake my fist at a cabbie, it means I would like to knock his head off. This is not a criminal offence. If I did hit him in the trap, it would be assault.

The cabbie made a gesture of anger with his vehicle, which is not a criminal offence. If he'd hit you, it would be assault and/or attempted murder.
( See 'Bristol bus driver' ).


Erm - isn't assault a threat and battery an actual act of violence...


Yup, my mistake. Threatening behavior is 'Assault'.

The copper in Richmond park must have thought the cabby's actions were too insignificant to give chase and make an arrest.

If every threatening point of a finger, shake of fist or swerve from a motorist was brought to court, there'd be no time to convict murderers. rapists and peedos.

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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 16 May 2012, 3:10pm

Ayesha wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Ayesha wrote:If I shake my fist at a cabbie, it means I would like to knock his head off. This is not a criminal offence. If I did hit him in the trap, it would be assault.

The cabbie made a gesture of anger with his vehicle, which is not a criminal offence. If he'd hit you, it would be assault and/or attempted murder.
( See 'Bristol bus driver' ).


Erm - isn't assault a threat and battery an actual act of violence...


Yup, my mistake. Threatening behavior is 'Assault'.

The copper in Richmond park must have thought the cabby's actions were too insignificant to give chase and make an arrest.

If every threatening point of a finger, shake of fist or swerve from a motorist was brought to court, there'd be no time to convict murderers. rapists and peedos.


IIRC it has to be a threat which you (as a victim) have a reasonable expection that it could/would be carried through
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Fortinbras99
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Re: Riding Two Abreast.

Postby Fortinbras99 » 16 May 2012, 3:13pm

I kind of half agree with all the posts on here.

Riding two abreast when a vehicle behind you would otherwise be capable of passing is antagonistic. It's selfish and does nothing to foster good relations with your fellow road users. Yes it may not be illegal but that's not really the point - it's not illegal to let a door close in someone's face either but most of us still wouldn't do it.

I don't agree with riding in the gutter though. There are several reasons why it's better to "ride big" - mainly so that people can only overtake you when there is genuinely enough space, and also because if you get a close pass you still have a metre of space to your left to move into. It also means you don't cycle over poorer sections of the road, ironworks, whatever.

Just my tuppenceworth.