reohn2 wrote:What? you mean you're not doing?
No. I like to mimic my creations in order to understand them...
reohn2 wrote:What? you mean you're not doing?
kwackers wrote:reohn2 wrote:What? you mean you're not doing?
No. I like to mimic my creations in order to understand them...
kwackers wrote:Si wrote:Nope, a numbering system is only absolute until it is expressed and used.
Eh? It's absolute in its usage - how can it not be??
Si wrote:kwackers wrote:Si wrote:Nope, a numbering system is only absolute until it is expressed and used.
Eh? It's absolute in its usage - how can it not be??
Because it is applied.
sjs wrote:
For those having trouble understanding you (perhaps that failure to understand in itself backs up your case) can you provide an example? I find they often help.
reohn2 wrote:sjs wrote:
For those having trouble understanding you (perhaps that failure to understand in itself backs up your case) can you provide an example? I find they often help.
Could I try to sumerise Si's case as I see it(I'm having difficulty,which maybe my lack of intelligence)
Religion=faith in an unseen Author,Maker and (possibly)controller of all that is,seen and unseen.Which relies on revelation and or writings(mostly ancient which have been translated from other,sometimes dead,languages)
Science=a search for the truth and understanding by human beings about all that is,seen and unseen,with tools and measuring equipment available to them.
Si IMO seems to be saying that humanity's understanding of science is as vague as it's understanding of God and that humans have to have faith in science,even though science can be proven by using those same tools and equipment.
Whereas religion needs faith and can only be proven by interaction by humans through either or religious scriptures or divine revelation.
sjs wrote:
I'm with you there. It seems to me that science is an attempt to formalise the sort of practical investigations that a rational person would do if he/she were seriously trying to understand the world around them.
Religion is not that.
But to claim that science and religion inhabit completely different spheres and are therefore not in conflict is to ignore the fact that some religions make claims about the same things that science investigates, creation being one obvious example.
sjs wrote:Si wrote:kwackers wrote:Eh? It's absolute in its usage - how can it not be??
Because it is applied.
For those having trouble understanding you (perhaps that failure to understand in itself backs up your case) can you provide an example? I find they often help.
reohn2 wrote:sjs wrote:
For those having trouble understanding you (perhaps that failure to understand in itself backs up your case) can you provide an example? I find they often help.
Si IMO seems to be saying that humanity's understanding of science is as vague as it's understanding of God and that humans have to have faith in science,even though science can be proven by using those same tools and equipment.
Whereas religion needs faith and can only be proven by interaction by humans through either or religious scriptures or divine revelation.
Si wrote: 'engineering', etc to mostly work (within possibly generous tolerances), but no one will get it perfectly, and for most it will be amazingly imperfect.
reohn2 wrote:Define perfect?
Si wrote:
There are different types of examples, some of which have been already given).
Kwackers' argument seems to be that the physical universe is made up of a number of laws, constants and absolutes, which includes a numbering system. I have no issue with this (or rather I have faith in this being so ). This is what we might call pure, abstracted mathematics.....it goes on whether or not people are taking any notice of it. Where I seem to differ with Kwackers is in the extent to which people can access it without the purity/truth/etc being impinged upon.
To give a really awkward example, I am about to type a number - when you read this number I want you to hold up as many fingers as that number represents. Now, following the theory of pure mathematics this number must represent the number that it represents - it can't be more and it can't be less. So here goes: 10
So how many fingers did you hold up? Are all of your digits extended, or are you flicking the 'V's at the screen? That is, did you read the number I typed in base 10, or in binary? this is what I mean by 'applied' as soon as humans start messing with this pure number form it all starts getting a bit dodgy. Now, you may argue that the error is that I didn't express the number correctly and I should have included an indicator of base, but then I could easily point out another problem with it (for instance if it is a decimal 10, have you put up 10 fingers or have you put up 8 finger and two thumbs?).
My view is that humans can't access the purity of the real physical world without tainting it due to the interpretations that they place upon it and the restraints on how they can express it due to their system of language. Sure, some can get very close - close enough in fact for 'science', 'engineering', etc to mostly work (within possibly generous tolerances), but no one will get it perfectly, and for most it will be amazingly imperfect.
Some other examples: MMR vaccinations - science should have been able to give us a definitive answer much earlier than it did, but because there is this unbreakable link between the science and the social, it couldn't. And of course, the old classic: Schroedinger's cat....logic tells us the cat has to be either alive or dead from the get-go, yet it is observation that either condemns or saves it.