My legs hurt

[1942alexander]

Hi Dave, I've just gone, or am still going through what you are experiencing. I've no health or weight problems but I do have an age problem (70). Sport, of one kind or another, has been part of my whole life. I have done the cycling to running transition when I was in my late teens, ran a youth marathon (twenty three and a half miles) and came third after only one training run of ten miles. I played squash from the very early seventies until 1996 when I decided to start marathon running. I gave up running last November and now concentrating solely on the bike. This time I found the change from running to bike was not easy unlike the bike to running. My lower legs were fine but I'd no strength in my thighs and they hurt like hell when put under stress. However, I am just finishing a winter long break in the sun and have spent the last five months training on the same climb, twice per week. It took me over four months to actually ride to the top (1078mtrs, the height of Snowden) but I've done it now on the last five rides, with one ride left to do. It's a 40 mile ride and a two hour climb to the top and I can't do it yet without stopping (not walking), but at least the stops are getting less frequent and some are now very short. I also have tenderness from the saddle which I hope will disappear in time. My advice is don't give up. Take it slowly but regularly. Go upto the pain barrier but no further or you'll risk injury. As you progress the pain will come later and later. You will probably see a rapid improvement in the first few weeks if you are basically starting from scratch but this will slow down until you hit a plateau. At this stage you may be satisfied with your fitness and continue to ride for pleasure but if your eventual aim is to race then look forward to even more pain (and pleasure). The choice is yours. Regards...

[1942alexander]

I forgot to add this to my previous post.
All sport is as much a mental discipline as a physical one. At the same time as training your body, your mind should be strengthening your resolve and judging how much more pain you can endure without it affecting your determination to do it all again in a day or two. No matter what your capability is, if you're working "flat out" then you're going to be in pain. The good ones enjoy it, the others are satisfied to work at a more comfortable level.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

I was the same on my first bike ride (first for a few years), doesn't matter how much walking you do. I rode for about 5 miles, and after I got back my legs were shaking, I had difficulty climbing the stairs! That went away after the first couple of rides.

Walking on the flat or even the ocasional hill does not develop the quads and hams in the same way as cycling, you have cycled before so you have the mental experience, which is a stronger tool than just about anything.

One thing I would say for getting fit is, don't walk up the hills, that'll only help your walking. Just plan a route that doesn't go up ridiculous hills, but if you feel you can't pedal any more, get off, have a rest for a few minutes, then continue. You'll be surprised how quickly you'll build up fitness so you'll go longer between rest stops.

Cycling is inefficient on hills and more so on steep hills, so when you have been reduced to first gear and you continue to slow, hopping off and walking is not only easier so recovery is good but also faster for less effort, I find that If I have ever had to walk through long spell off bike or Its been a very hard touring day then walking is just fine, the next time round you will pace the hill better and the knowledge of the hill spurs you on, every one walks sometimes.
In training I dont need to but after a day of lumping 30 kgs of bike and gear I dont mind, In a race you cant afford to of course.

Cheers,

[Malaconotus]

Not aching legs. Utterly out of breath. And that's at a gentle job barely faster than walking pace. As soon as it turns into a run, I can't sustain it.

If you could walk 15 miles in one day, and cycle 15 miles in one hour, I would say that theres no problem .

I'm with Karlt. I couldn't run 200 yards without collapsing out of breath. I'm 42, and being 6' 5" tall doesn't excuse my 19 stone, I'm probably 5 stone overweight, and have been for years, and, embarassingly, I still haven't quit the fags for good.

But,.. I completed a 100K audax from Otley in four hours last summer at a 15mph average, third home out of forty-odd starters, and I did a few hilly imperial centuries, one fully loaded on a fat-tyred Long Haul Trucker, at around 13mph moving average, (plus cake stops). After the winter and the weather limiting the days and distances I'm not in quite the same condition now, but I'll be riding thirty miles to York on Monday and expecting to take under two hours, and might well ride back if I'm feeling good.

So am I fit or not?

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Not aching legs. Utterly out of breath. And that's at a gentle job barely faster than walking pace. As soon as it turns into a run, I can't sustain it.

If you could walk 15 miles in one day, and cycle 15 miles in one hour, I would say that theres no problem .

I'm with Karlt. I couldn't run 200 yards without collapsing out of breath. I'm 42, and being 6' 5" tall doesn't excuse my 19 stone, I'm probably 5 stone overweight, and have been for years, and, embarassingly, I still haven't quit the fags for good.
But,.. I completed a 100K audax from Otley in four hours last summer at a 15mph average, third home out of forty-odd starters, and I did a few hilly imperial centuries, one fully loaded on a fat-tyred Long Haul Trucker, at around 13mph moving average, (plus cake stops). After the winter and the weather limiting the days and distances I'm not in quite the same condition now, but I'll be riding thirty miles to York on Monday and expecting to take under two hours, and might well ride back if I'm feeling good.
So am I fit or not?

From my previous posts.
"NATURAL ANKLING WROTE
So how fit are you and whats your age and wieght condition
If you are over 35 and overweight by more than 15 to 20 % then I would not advise running at all.
I havent run since say mid 90's because of increased weight, and then it took me 14 weeks for my muscles to become supple enough to run comfortably. And my performance was 45 minutes slower than my previous 1ST half marathon in 85.
Running if over weight is uncomfortable and will lead to foot tendon damage ( correct shoes and correct style needed too ) I liken it to putting on a 30 Ib rucksac and running up 20 - 30 stairs Very dependant on age and exercise history and current fitness.
This all considering that you mainly train run on hard surfaces."
You have answered the question about your fitness, but I would like to add that you are deffinately doing VERY well with your rides, considering your size and ex smoking Cyling allows you to do this because all the weight is supported by saddle, and all propulson is done unhampered by weight, with exception of hills. Walking see below.
When I was over 14 stone ( 2 1/2 stone over weight) I felt very uncomfortable, and in my better days when I could walk The pennine way and do 46 miles in one day with a 45 Ibs, dry rucksack no food or water included
If I had to carry 3 stone on my back and run I would not get far, Bearing in mind that when running in the correct style thats not sprinting or 4 minute miles, your feet are only on the ground for 40 % of the time so thats 80 % all in. so 20 % left is airborn
In walking thats each foot in on the ground 60 % of the time, that a 20 % overlap so one foot on the gound at any time.
This is why being overweight is crucial in running at all.
I have never smoked so I cant comment here.
But I did loose weight for only the first time in my life. Your aim is 14 / 15 stone, but do it slowly as quick crash diets will lose muscle mass too
At this target weight your ability to run will be transformed. Aim to reduce and remove all food stuff from your diet that has 50 % fat.
Asess your three main meals a day and reduce fat intake to 20 to 20 grams per meal. Make meals from scatch, use Quorn instead of meat.
Your plus is your age, if you can give up smoking your life expectancy will grow by 10 years or more in a few years. The fact that you already have this inherent fitness from your cycling, means its will be easier than a non active person with same body condition, Hieght and weight, Ex smoker.
Good luck.
P.S. For all runners, make sure you roll your feet when running, practice this for correct style by copying a "Walking Race Style" Where you FLEX your ankle up at front Before your foot hits the ground. Do this for short distances at walking pace, in a short time you will get pains at front of shin bones, this will dissapear in time and will program your body and brain so that when you run the heel hits ground first

[theDaveB]

This has turned into a interesting thread.

Am getting further each day and my backside no longer hurts!

My problem is we seem to live high up (never noticed before) so riding anywhere seems easy but coming back is a killer.

Am not doing this to be racing or anything, I want to eventually do some touring in the UK and then in Europe.

EDIT: Had 3 days off and went out today, feels like my first time again. My backside is killing me

Dave

[1942alexander]

P.S. For all runners, make sure you roll your feet when running, practice this for correct style by copying a "Walking Race Style" Where you FLEX your ankle up at front Before your foot hits the ground. Do this for short distances at walking pace, in a short time you will get pains at front of shin bones, this will dissapear in time and will program your body and brain so that when you run the heel hits ground first

NATURAL ANKLING... I've read so many of your usually excellent comments on these pages that I am highly surprised you came out with the quote above. As a runner for the past sixteen years, and as a heel striker which the vast majority of runners are, it is extreme foolishness to advise people to train to be a better heel striker. Apart from the fact that heel striking has a braking effect with every step, there is absolutely no natural cushioning effect when landing on the heel. The shock is transmitted right up the leg and through ankle, knee and hip, all important joints to protect as much as possible. If you ran barefoot you would feel the impact and realize that the only way that heel strikers can survive long distance training is using as much cushioning in their trainers as possible. The pain in the shins is usually shin splints which you must not, without a medical team behind you as is the case with the top class athletes, try to run through. The foot does have a built in shock absorbing system which involves landing on the outside of the forefoot and pronating inwards, a technique that many sprinters use but if you're just a mass participation runner it would be impossible to alter your style and would risk injury if you did.

[[XAP]Bob]

This has turned into a interesting thread.

Am getting further each day and my backside no longer hurts!

My problem is we seem to live high up (never noticed before) so riding anywhere seems easy but coming back is a killer.

Am not doing this to be racing or anything, I want to eventually do some touring in the UK and then in Europe.

EDIT: Had 3 days off and went out today, feels like my first time again. My backside is killing me

Dave

you will be able to tolerate longer breaks after a while, just keep spinning...

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

P.S. For all runners, make sure you roll your feet when running, practice this for correct style by copying a "Walking Race Style" Where you FLEX your ankle up at front Before your foot hits the ground. Do this for short distances at walking pace, in a short time you will get pains at front of shin bones, this will dissapear in time and will program your body and brain so that when you run the heel hits ground first

NATURAL ANKLING... I've read so many of your usually excellent comments on these pages that I am highly surprised you came out with the quote above. As a runner for the past sixteen years, and as a heel striker--

1942alexander
That's a modern marketing hype NO NO Stupid shoe manufactures are using the "Land on the mid sole and ball" to try to change the way we walk and run heel striker" Sounds harsh and normally quoted with an icon in the image of lightening strike
Why are you running on your heels
You are running correctly and have had training or found that it was smoother
Why if you look at most amaeture runner / joggers do you see them running on there mid to ball part of foot Because we no longer stretch our ham strings through too much sitting on chairs and lack of stooping, which our forfathers would not have had the time and privilege to do.
When I first ran more than than 100 yrds, 1 1/2 miles done on my toes I paid the price and could not be sustained and EX sprinters attempting that in a marathon never finished. Mine was just plain ignorance. Long distance running is probably not natural so in the early days Bare Foot would probably been limited to short runs to catch or hide

--which the vast majority of runners are,

Club runners most we hope but not all, Amaeture Not

it is extreme foolishness to advise people to train to be a better heel striker. Apart from the fact that heel striking has a braking effect with every step, there is absolutely no natural cushioning effect when landing on the heel. The shock is transmitted right up the leg and through ankle, knee and hip, all important joints to protect as much as possible.--

NOT heel striking, Foot Rolling......pronation. Of course you do need correct foot wear for the distance and terrain you plan to do.
http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000564.html .............Utter rubbish.............WHO writes this stuff.............
http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/64 ... niques.pdf ........Oh right.......Michael Johnson........well he's a sprinter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Johnson_(sprinter) .....Spinters run on their toes for 100 - 200 metres .........NO
I dont see any sprinters going down the Tow Path on Sunday, well one could be mistaken for one.

-- If you ran barefoot you would feel the impact and realize that the only way that heel strikers can survive long distance training is using as much cushioning in their trainers as possible. The pain in the shins is usually shin splints which you must not, without a medical team behind you as is the case with the top class athletes, try to run through.--

Bare foot see above.
Shin splints, ( to get this in the cronic term you would have to be working quite hard I.M.H.O ) that comes from muscle weakness in front on shins and tight calfs, if they would run correctly to start would not happen, plus physio therapy to isolate and strengthen the poor muscles, all on the net to find.
http://www.netplaces.com/wedding-workou ... r-legs.htm
http://walking.about.com/od/rwtechnique ... walk_5.htm
http://www.activesportandhealth.com/hom ... age0_6.pdf
http://demotu.org/pralados60/files/2011 ... unning.pdf

--The foot does have a built in shock absorbing system which involves landing on the outside of the forefoot and pronating inwards, a technique that many sprinters use--

You did say that "Sprinters".....Not charity runners or jogers or have ago club runners etc, etc.

--but if you're just a mass participation runner it would be impossible to alter your style and would risk injury if you did.

Why ......... Better a foot roller than a foot stomper, dont take very long really, I was suggesting foot rolling although I did say "heel hits the ground first"
This is all based on my personal experience, but if you were to look at Alberto Salazar Word record holder previosly, you would see that he coached the Berlin marathon winner 2011 ( IIRC) who also broke the world record, who like the first Female home too were both Foot Rolling or hitting the ground with their heel which ever you want to call it A amaeture runner takes twice the steps as a elite runner in a marathon
Stunted stride means that you shuffle along on your mide sole and toes.
Patrick MAKAU Musyoki 2011 Berlin winner and WR holder.

Cheers,
P.S. 1942alexander Please dont take any of my comments as a whack on the head with my big stick , if it comes out that way I apoligise in advance.

[Vorpal]

Shin splints, ( to get this in the cronic term you would have to be working quite hard I.M.H.O ) that comes from muscle weakness in front on shins and tight calfs, if they would run correctly to start would not happen, plus physio therapy to isolate and strengthen the poor muscles, all on the net to find.

I'm not a runner, but I played football, where shin splints are relatively common.

It is *not* caused by tight calves, though muscle weakness can contribute to it. I'm not certain about 'running incorrectly' but I think that most people run naturally in a way that our bodies have evolved to do, and special training can only make it more effective.

Shin splints are mainly caused by
-overtraining on hard surfaces
-not building up the training intensity gradually
-not warming up / cooling down correctly
-changes in the surface on which training / running is done

The reason they are common among footballers is that the surfaces vary considerably and can become hard in a very short period of time when it dries out or freezes. The players' muscles may not be sufficiently trained/adapted for a hard surface when that occurs.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Shin splints, ( to get this in the cronic term you would have to be working quite hard I.M.H.O ) that comes from muscle weakness in front on shins and tight calfs, if they would run correctly to start would not happen, plus physio therapy to isolate and strengthen the poor muscles, all on the net to find.

I'm not a runner, but I played football, where shin splints are relatively common.

Yes I can imagine that the complex exercise which requires stop start's and max acceleration, fast change in direction with stamina thrown in, not to mention the footwear thats needed for traction and ball play will raise a lot of physical stresses.
I remember watching Michael Owen english player in the word cup, and on chasing the ball changed direction just after his foot hitting the turf, his knee pivoted sideways with all body weight and momentum The grip of studs doing their job well, not alowing the foot to swivel.

It is *not* caused by tight calves, though muscle weakness can contribute to it. I'm not certain about 'running incorrectly' but I think that most people run naturally in a way that our bodies have evolved to do, and special training can only make it more effective.

When you first start running you tend to land on the flats of your feet because thats how our bodies have developed in the modern world.
The extra effort of landing on the mid foot and ball / toes overworks the calfs, which will tend to stiffen after exercise, on resuming next day or before the stiffness has passed your toes now drag on the ground as the front lower leg muscles cannot cope with trying to counter the stiff larger calf muscles.
You either run through the pain which might lead to shin splints or stop and walk / retire till the stiffness has gone.

Shin splints are mainly caused by
-overtraining on hard surfaces
-not building up the training intensity gradually
-not warming up / cooling down correctly
-changes in the surface on which training / running is done

The reason they are common among footballers is that the surfaces vary considerably and can become hard in a very short period of time when it dries out or freezes. The players' muscles may not be sufficiently trained/adapted for a hard surface when that occurs.

Yes all of those.
I was out on Sunday and noted all runners and their styles, most run flat foot and or toes down, like shuffle.
One female in particular ran with lovely straight legs and good posture, I recon that she was a footballer or such as there seemed good style and ease of motion.
I could not view side ways to the style but I think that the stride was a bit short, which tends to happen if your main sport is not running distances, as the leg is not thrown forward enough to a locked position just prior to foot landing. It might well have been better than that as I could not see well, and the runner was not putting in alot of effort but travelling very well.
Most of the styles rely on ones personal make up and the previous training / sport.
Back on subject this is interesting -
http://www.posetech.com/training/archiv ... cling.html

Cheers,

[fatmac]

I'm late to this party, but I hope you're still going out.
I live at the top of a (300ft) climb back home, & that has been very off putting, but if you persevere it will come good.
Enjoy your cycling, weight will go, but not very fast, however fitness will increase more rapidly.

[Steve@Tern]

Another one late to the party, and another one hoping that you're sticking with it. I think all of us with a few summers behind us will sympathise!
But I have a question for the road experts - when building up stamina/strength/technique for getting up the hills, is it better to persevere with climbing in the saddle, or standing on the pedals, or both, or doesn't it matter?

[easyroller]

^^^ Really depends on the hill, speed of attack and type of ride you're doing and what you're comfortable with.

Short sharp stuff I may stand and go for it sprint style, but I usually try to stay seated as long as possible then stomp on the pedals when it gets harder. Seated is generally accepted as being more efficient. It's always handy to be proficient at both though.


My legs hurt after pretty much every training ride I do, if they don't then I haven't ridden hard enough!

[theDaveB]

Am still sticking with it, although weather has been terrible since Sunday. Was out for about 2 hours on Saturday and it gorgeous weather. Wondered if I should go out in the rain and get use to it, incase am ever stuck in a downpour. Noticed Decathlon do ponchos as well gaily cheaply, so might invest in one.

Dave