drossall wrote:What I want to know is whether the OP is any the wiser
Hopefully the answer is: yes - what is definitive? What for...
drossall wrote:What I want to know is whether the OP is any the wiser
Phil Fouracre wrote:Probably none the wiser! Just another 'helmet thread' effectively going nowhere.
martinn wrote:So the answer is (In my opinon) after having followed this thread....
its a bit too complicated with too many variables, and there is no interest in trying to do any better because, there are other areas of cycle safety which have a much more significant impact, for the amount of time, effort and money that would be required to answer the helmet question.
So the question of does the evidence support wearing a helmet is proably never going to be answered in a fashion that will be unequvical.
Which at the end of the day is more than a little fustrating,
Thank you for all your thoughts.
Martin
martinn wrote:So the question of does the evidence support wearing a helmet is proably never going to be answered in a fashion that will be unequvical.
Which at the end of the day is more than a little fustrating,
Steady rider wrote:Studies can be provided in various ways, gather injury data and compare wearers to non-wearers, problem here is they do differ in several ways and behavior is a prime function of accident involvement, it becomes difficult to reliably compare.
pjclinch wrote:martinn wrote:So the question of does the evidence support wearing a helmet is proably never going to be answered in a fashion that will be unequvical.
Which at the end of the day is more than a little fustrating,
I think the actualities of life are to complex to come up with questions with yes/no answers like that for a great many situations. You just can't come up with quantitative measures for faffing, image-conciousness, comfort etc. etc., which will inform the personal end decision for a lot of people.
The typical answer to a simple question like "should I wear a helmet to cycle?" almost inevitably has an answer of "it depends...", and the list of things it depends on is very long and has a lot of things that don't lend themselves to hard numbers.
TonyR wrote:
Which is why it should be a matter of informed personal choice. But based on the overall population statistics you can say its almost certainly not worth wearing one for safety reasons. Of course there are exceptions. Just as the population statistics say you would be foolish to smoke, if you are suffering from a terminal disease with months left to live or you've just reached your 90th birthday then its highly unlikely that taking up smoking is going to kill you but that still does not mean its a good idea for most people to take up smoking.
But the problem with the "exceptions" approach is that there is even less data to inform an approach to helmets. So it may be that if you could get good data it could show, for arguments sake, that wearing a helmet as a 30-35 year old female on a sit up and beg Dutch bike has a safety benefit. But in the absence of that data its not a good idea to assume that you, as a 32 year old female with a Dutch bike, are somehow special and different from the general population. You are much better off assuming that you are just like the general population and there will be no discernible safety benefit. The problem is though that people use "common sense" to impute a benefit but as we know from a number of areas of cycling and safety, common sense is a very unreliable guide.
pjclinch wrote:Population studies show that for folk riding on the general transport network there is no clear and obvious safety benefit from wearing a helmet. It'd be a stretch to extrapolate that to, say, BMX Freecross, because that isn't in the data set (and even if it was the numbers are too small to have much effect). But if you're an avid BMXer you can see how often your comrades are crashing and ending up in hospital, and you can see that it's a lot more than Joe and Jane Utility Cyclist. In which case your more protective gloves, suit, body protection and full-face crash helmet are probably more reliably informed by millennia of putting something between you and a (relatively frequent) whack than what studies said about folk getting from A to B by bike.
Having said that, most of us, most of the time, are in the big mixing pot of the general population, and in terms of safety prediction it's as Tony says. Lots of people like to give benefit of the doubt, but T&C apply, and safety changes can go down as well as up... My favourite quick characterisation of the overall effectiveness of helmets for safety is "about zero, plus or minus error bars". Note especially the "or minus"...
TonyR wrote:pjclinch wrote:Population studies show that for folk riding on the general transport network there is no clear and obvious safety benefit from wearing a helmet. It'd be a stretch to extrapolate that to, say, BMX Freecross, because that isn't in the data set (and even if it was the numbers are too small to have much effect). But if you're an avid BMXer you can see how often your comrades are crashing and ending up in hospital, and you can see that it's a lot more than Joe and Jane Utility Cyclist. In which case your more protective gloves, suit, body protection and full-face crash helmet are probably more reliably informed by millennia of putting something between you and a (relatively frequent) whack than what studies said about folk getting from A to B by bike.
But that illustrates my point perfectly. Its very easy to see that putting something between you and a whack is common sense on the roads too. After all how can an inch or so of cushioning not help when your head hits that car or kerb? But as we know common sense gives the wrong answer because of a whole range of effects - bigger head size, risk compensation, increased rotational effects etc etc. Now in BMX nobody has done the studies AFAIK but why do you think that common sense works there and not on the roads? Certainly the helmets make your head a bigger target in an offie and you can almost guarantee that riders would not try such big stunts without the assumed protection of helmets.
Its very interesting to read a study comparing BMX with ordinary cycles (1) from back in the days when helmets were not the norm where you find:
"The overall proportion of injuries above the neck was 53% in the ordinary group and 31% in the BMX group, a significant difference."
Perhaps not what common sense would have you believe.